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Old April 16th, 2012, 04:36 PM
Posted in reply to Jaybird180's post "Radials on departure and GPS"
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Ren dell30rb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aterpster View Post
Do you get a glideslope for ILS and LPV on the GPSMAP 696?
Dont have a 696 but i think the answer is yes if you switch to the screen with a 6pack
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Old April 17th, 2012, 10:30 AM   #27
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Re: Radials on departure and GPS

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Originally Posted by aterpster View Post
I have no experience with VFR panel mounts. Will they do an LPV IAP?
That's like asking if a VFR airplane will cruise at 150 knots. Some will, some won't -- depends on which one it is and how it's installed. Also, LPV is simply a subset of an RNAV(GPS) approach, and you can find the basic approach in equipment that doesn't even have WAAS even if you aren't allowed to fly it to LPV mins or have it display the vertical guidance.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 02:25 PM   #28
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Re: Radials on departure and GPS

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Originally Posted by Ron Levy View Post
That's like asking if a VFR airplane will cruise at 150 knots. Some will, some won't -- depends on which one it is and how it's installed. Also, LPV is simply a subset of an RNAV(GPS) approach, and you can find the basic approach in equipment that doesn't even have WAAS even if you aren't allowed to fly it to LPV mins or have it display the vertical guidance.
You shouldn't be allowed to fly it to any minimums. I trust that is what you are saying. LPV is a very unique "subset' of RNAV and functions quite differently than other aspects of RNAV.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 04:24 PM   #29
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Re: Radials on departure and GPS

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Originally Posted by aterpster View Post
You shouldn't be allowed to fly it to any minimums. I trust that is what you are saying. LPV is a very unique "subset' of RNAV and functions quite differently than other aspects of RNAV.
I can't think of a reason in the world (legal or safety) why one should not be flying an RNAV(GPS) approach to the LNAV mins using nonprecision procedures with a non-WAAS IFR/approach GPS even if there are LPV mins on that chart. That would be like saying you shouldn't be allowed to fly an ILS approach to the LOC minimums on the chart if you don't have a GS.

Or is there another point you're trying to make that I'm missing completely?
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Old April 17th, 2012, 07:21 PM   #30
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Re: Radials on departure and GPS

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Originally Posted by Ron Levy View Post
I can't think of a reason in the world (legal or safety) why one should not be flying an RNAV(GPS) approach to the LNAV mins using nonprecision procedures with a non-WAAS IFR/approach GPS even if there are LPV mins on that chart. That would be like saying you shouldn't be allowed to fly an ILS approach to the LOC minimums on the chart if you don't have a GS.

Or is there another point you're trying to make that I'm missing completely?
I agree with your statement made in this quote. But, previously I thought we were speaking of VFR panel mounts that supposedly can fly LPV.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 10:43 PM   #31
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Re: Radials on departure and GPS

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Originally Posted by aterpster View Post
I agree with your statement made in this quote. But, previously I thought we were speaking of VFR panel mounts that supposedly can fly LPV.
I may be wrong, but IIRC the 696 only depicts the lateral path for the approach from the FAF to the MAP. I think there is vertical guidance outside of the FAF, but that it goes away at the FAF so as to not tempt the pilot to use if for the final approach segment. The approach guidance is very limited and does not show waypoints outside of the FAF and is for situational awareness only and may not be used for any IFR navigation including enroute, terminal, or approach. There are no RAIM or WAAS integrity functions performed.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 11:07 PM   #32
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Re: Radials on departure and GPS

My Radial, departs just fine with or with out a GPS.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 09:42 AM   #33
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Re: Radials on departure and GPS

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Originally Posted by John Collins View Post
I may be wrong, but IIRC the 696 only depicts the lateral path for the approach from the FAF to the MAP. I think there is vertical guidance outside of the FAF, but that it goes away at the FAF so as to not tempt the pilot to use if for the final approach segment. The approach guidance is very limited and does not show waypoints outside of the FAF and is for situational awareness only and may not be used for any IFR navigation including enroute, terminal, or approach. There are no RAIM or WAAS integrity functions performed.
That has been the historical stance. One of my Garmin avionics friends stated to me a long time ago that the hand-helds were a consumer product, no different than one of their automotive GPS units.

I have never discussed with them the VFR panel mounts. That isn't in my area of work interest these days.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 01:42 PM   #34
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Re: Radials on departure and GPS

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Originally Posted by Ron Levy View Post
I can't think of a reason in the world (legal or safety) why one should not be flying an RNAV(GPS) approach to the LNAV mins using nonprecision procedures with a non-WAAS IFR/approach GPS even if there are LPV mins on that chart. That would be like saying you shouldn't be allowed to fly an ILS approach to the LOC minimums on the chart if you don't have a GS.

Or is there another point you're trying to make that I'm missing completely?
Ok, this is throwing me. I thought you couldn't do either if you didn't have the proper (and approved) equipment.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 03:31 PM   #35
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Re: Radials on departure and GPS

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Originally Posted by Jaybird180 View Post
Ok, this is throwing me. I thought you couldn't do either if you didn't have the proper (and approved) equipment.
That's correct. But just because an approach has ILS mins for which a GS is required doesn't mean you can't legally fly it to the LOC mins on that chart if you have a LOC receiver but no GS. Likewise, just because an RNAV(GPS) approach has LPV mins for which you need a WAAS IFR/approach GPS doesn't mean you can't legally fly it IFR to the LNAV mins on that chart using a non-WAAS IFR/approach GPS.

Now, maybe there is an RNAV(GPS) approach out there which has LPV mins but no LNAV mins, in which case you couldn't fly it at all without a WAAS IFR/approach GPS, but I haven't seen one like that yet.

...and the sound you hear is fingers punching keys trying to find such an approach.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 04:45 PM   #36
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Re: Radials on departure and GPS

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Originally Posted by Ron Levy View Post
Now, maybe there is an RNAV(GPS) approach out there which has LPV mins but no LNAV mins, in which case you couldn't fly it at all without a WAAS IFR/approach GPS, but I haven't seen one like that yet.
Hunt and peck no longer.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1204/00680RZ26.PDF
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Old April 18th, 2012, 04:55 PM   #37
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Re: Radials on departure and GPS

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Originally Posted by John Collins View Post
Well, there you go, Wally -- an RNAV(GPS) approach you can only fly with a WAAS IFR/approach GPS. It's interesting to compare it with the RNAV(GPS) Y Rwy 26 there, which is LNAV only. And I'm sure there are also ILS approaches with no LOC option, too. However, if the LNAV or LOC mins are there, you can fly it without the WAAS or GS, respectively -- just not so low. Now, can anyone find an airport with separate LOC and ILS approaches to the same runway using the same localizer (same direction, not BC vs FC)?

Last edited by Ron Levy; April 18th, 2012 at 04:59 PM.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 06:26 PM   #38
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Re: Radials on departure and GPS

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Originally Posted by Ron Levy View Post
Well, there you go, Wally -- an RNAV(GPS) approach you can only fly with a WAAS IFR/approach GPS. It's interesting to compare it with the RNAV(GPS) Y Rwy 26 there, which is LNAV only. And I'm sure there are also ILS approaches with no LOC option, too. However, if the LNAV or LOC mins are there, you can fly it without the WAAS or GS, respectively -- just not so low. Now, can anyone find an airport with separate LOC and ILS approaches to the same runway using the same localizer (same direction, not BC vs FC)?
Why are you telling me this? As if I didn't know aready.
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