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Aerobatics Whether you're an aerobatic pilot or just interested in it, you can find all the loops, rolls, and other maneuvers inside!

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Old April 5th, 2012, 11:04 PM
Posted in reply to david0tey's post "negative g pushover"
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Light and Sporty Guy Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe is offline
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Re: negative g pushover

Over gross is not a good thing. Playng games while over gross is a really not good thing. It was just a reminder.
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Old April 7th, 2012, 03:46 AM
Posted in reply to denverpilot's post starting "You're going to get all sorts of..."
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Re: negative g pushover

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Originally Posted by denverpilot View Post
You're going to get all sorts of confused by this thread.

Why not just grab a local CFI and explain that you've seen all those goofy YouTube videos of negative G pushes and that you'd like to experience a mild safe one in a real airplane. You know there are some risks involved and you don't want to accidentally do anything dumb or dangerous.

Bonus: Find the CFI who'll do spin training and unusual attitudes. If they recommend the use of something aerobatic-rated, fine... but still have them show you mild maneuvering in the Skyhawk.

Also, even though you're not going for the rating, any CFI can demonstrate the maneuvers required of the Commercial rating, for example, which are good aircraft control maneuvers and very benign. They won't feel benign if all you've ever done is pattern work. They will however open your eyes to the three-dimensions we operate in. Look at the books and the descriptions. Download a copy of the Commercial PTS and envision in a chair how the controls would have to move to do those maneuvers.

After you've seen and felt it, it's a lot easier to understand.

Airplanes only fly square patterns because we make them. Climbing and descending circles in the sky are fun. Vertical arcs while coordinating throttle and elevator inputs to hold one airspeed are good practice. So called "Dutch rolls" where the heading of the aircraft stays constant in one direction but you rock the wings from side to side while using coordinated rudder inputs to stay pointed straight ahead are also easy and a hoot.

A Skyhawk isn't suited for the "tumbling mirth" of the famous aviation poem, but it doesn't have to be a "straight and level all the time" airplane either.

Have a CFI with grey hair show you how to play safely if the ones with brown hair won't.

Remember above all the point of learning aircraft control feel is so you can use those motor skills to get yourself out of trouble and also so you can give most of your passengers a smooth comfortable ride. If one asks for the more aggressive maneuvers, a simple steep turn may fit ther desire for "pulling Gs" just fine.

And check on their condition often, or you'll be scrubbing up the barf out of the carpet.
I've always thought spins were the best first step for someone looking to do something other than the same old straight and level they've been doing. Most people who have spun (and didn't scare themselves) become less nervous when practicing stalls.
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Old April 7th, 2012, 11:02 AM
Posted in reply to david0tey's post "negative g pushover"
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Ken Ibold Ken Ibold is offline
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Re: negative g pushover

Keep in mind also that the aircraft's posted g limits are structural. When you go negative, lots of things can happen that are not structural failures. As Ron mentioned, washers and bits of wire and lost pencils etc fly around. Glasses and headsets can come off, a poorly fit oil filler cap can unseat, an old worn Cessna seat tracks that hasn't been inspected properly might even give up a seat. OK, that last one is obviously a stretch. But the point is that structural failure isn't the only thing to worry about.
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Old April 7th, 2012, 11:35 AM
Posted in reply to RotorAndWing's post "Re: negative g pushover"
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Re: negative g pushover

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Originally Posted by Rotor&Wing View Post
Negative G's in most rotorcraft are bad, really, really bad.
ODG Yes. One of my pilots in the CG was a former Army Warrant from the Huey community. I remember him talking about the "Jesus Nut" one day and I asked him what it was, and he said it was the nut that held on the main rotor system and if it ever let go all you could say is "Jesus!". And then explained that negative G loads were an excellent way to eject the main rotor.

IIRC, this is the same guy who was given his own case of orange spray paint after scraping the tail-skid under the Fenestron on the HH-65s one too many times - the Chief AD gave him a class on how to repair it and from then on - he broke it, he fixed it. He learned pretty quick from that point on.
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Last edited by TMetzinger; April 7th, 2012 at 01:57 PM.
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Old April 7th, 2012, 12:03 PM
Posted in reply to david0tey's post "negative g pushover"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCA319 View Post
I've always thought spins were the best first step for someone looking to do something other than the same old straight and level they've been doing. Most people who have spun (and didn't scare themselves) become less nervous when practicing stalls.
+1000000 !

Once you've seen the "big evil scary spin", it ain't such a big deal.
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Old April 8th, 2012, 08:32 PM
Posted in reply to TMetzinger's post "Re: negative g pushover"
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Re: negative g pushover

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Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
ODG Yes. One of my pilots in the CG was a former Army Warrant from the Huey community. I remember him talking about the "Jesus Nut" one day and I asked him what it was, and he said it was the nut that held on the main rotor system and if it ever let go all you could say is "Jesus!". And then explained that negative G loads were an excellent way to eject the main rotor.
From AOPA's HoverPower Blog
Quote:
Low-G pushovers
January 29, 2010 by Tim McAdams
A two-blade or semi-rigid rotor system (such as the Robinson or some Bell series helicopters) is susceptible to a phenomenon called mast bumping. To avoid mast bumping it is important to fully understand the limitations and performance capability of this type of rotor system.

In order to produce thrust a helicopter’s rotor system must be loaded. Controlled by the cyclic, the swash plate changes the pitch angle on each blade separately. This creates an imbalance of thrust across the rotor disc forcing the disc to tilt, which causes the helicopter to roll or pitch in the desired direction.

Pushing the cyclic forward following a rapid climb or even in level flight places the helicopter in a low G (feeling of weightlessness) flight condition. In this unloaded condition rotor thrust is reduced and the helicopter is nose low and tail high. With the tail rotor now above the helicopter’s center of mass, the tail rotor thrust applies a right rolling moment to the fuselage (in a counter-clockwise turning rotor system). This moment causes the fuselage to roll right and the instinctive reaction is to counter it with left cyclic. However, with no rotor thrust there is no lateral control available to stop the right roll and the rotor hub can contact the mast. If contact is severe enough it will result in a mast failure and/or blade contact with the fuselage.

In order to recover the rotor must be reloaded before left cyclic will stop the right roll. To reload the rotor immediately apply gentle aft cyclic and when the weightless feeling stops, use lateral cyclic to correct the right roll.

The best practice is to exercise caution when in turbulent air and always use great care to avoid putting the helicopter in a low-G condition.
HoverPower Blog
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Old April 8th, 2012, 08:38 PM
Posted in reply to Satchmo10th's post "Re: negative g pushover"
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Re: negative g pushover

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Originally Posted by Satchmo10th View Post
From AOPA's HoverPower Blog


HoverPower Blog
I guess my question is..... How the heck does the Red Bull heli fly that aerobatic routine ??
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Old April 8th, 2012, 08:49 PM
Posted in reply to david0tey's post "negative g pushover"
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Rotor&Wing RotorAndWing is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N801BH View Post
I guess my question is..... How the heck does the Red Bull heli fly that aerobatic routine ??
He's using a BO-105 which has a rigid rotor that's been modified. That coupled with a precision pilot makes that routine possible.
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Old April 8th, 2012, 08:51 PM
Posted in reply to RotorAndWing's post starting "He's using a BO-105 which has a rigid..."
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Re: negative g pushover

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Originally Posted by Rotor&Wing View Post
He's using a BO-105 which has a rigid rotor that's been modified. That coupled with a precision pilot makes that routine possible.
Thanks r&w... The word "modified" spelled the difference...
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Old April 8th, 2012, 11:02 PM
Posted in reply to N801BH's post "Re: negative g pushover"
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Bruce C bbchien is offline
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Re: negative g pushover

...plus, if you look carefully, his routine is sort of the rotary equivalent of Bob Hoover's- not much negative (if ever) and not more than about 2g +.
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Old April 11th, 2012, 02:14 PM
Posted in reply to bbchien's post "Re: negative g pushover"
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Re: negative g pushover

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Originally Posted by bbchien View Post
R22s, too.
And R44's. And Jet Rangers. And UH-1's ...

It's the "I was a fixed wing pilot first" recoveries that turn these into accidents. Satchmo's quote is spot on.

Last edited by rotorhead1026; April 11th, 2012 at 02:17 PM.
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