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Old March 14th, 2012, 12:03 PM   #176
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

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Originally Posted by jesse View Post
How do you think people without DGs manage to land on the right runway? People with em land on the wrong one all the time.

The most important thing to landing on the right runway is constantly asking yourself, "Does this make sense", pay attention to all the details of the airport and the runway and the surrounding city if present. Best way to do that is to look out the damn window.
A mag compass is required for VFR flight. Look at it for runway verification. (provided you know how to use it correctly)

There are too many wrong runway icedents/accidents and can be avoided with a simple verification that you are actually landing on the correct runway.

I'll bet if you asked anyone that has landed or taken off on a runway they'll tell you that it made sense at the time..

I'll also bet if ask them if they could go back in time and check the DG, they would say "yes"..but, that's just my opinion..

Use everything, and I mean everything, at your disposal to manage the flight safely.

Ignoring the DG on final is not good management..
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Old March 14th, 2012, 12:05 PM   #177
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

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A mag compass is required for VFR flight. Look at it for runway verification. (provided you know how to use it correctly)

There are too many wrong runway icedents/accidents and can be avoided with a simple verification that you are actually landing on the correct runway.

I'll bet if you asked anyone that has landed or taken off on a runway they'll tell you that it made sense at the time..

I'll also bet if ask them if they could go back in time and check the DG, they would say "yes"..but, that's just my opinion..

Use everything, and I mean everything, at your disposal to manage the flight safely.

Ignoring the DG on final is not good management..
Correction:

I'll bet if you asked anyone that has landed or taken off on a wrong runway they'll tell you that it made sense at the time..
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Old March 14th, 2012, 01:01 PM   #178
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

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Correction:

I'll bet if you asked anyone that has landed or taken off on a wrong runway they'll tell you that it made sense at the time..
Some of you may recall this accident and the probable cause. A pretty good argument for verifying runway with DG or mag compass:

Accident description
Last updated: 14 March 2012
Status:Final Date:23 DEC 1983 Time:14:60 AST Type:McDonnell Douglas DC-10-30 Operator:Korean Air Lines - KAL Registration: HL7339 C/n / msn: 46960/237 First flight: 1977 Engines: 3 General Electric CF6-50C Crew:Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 3 Passengers:Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 0 Total:Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 3 Airplane damage: Written off Airplane fate: Written off (damaged beyond repair) Location:Anchorage International Airport, AK (ANC) (United States of America) Phase: Takeoff (TOF) Nature:Cargo Departure airport:Anchorage International Airport, AK (ANC) (ANC/PANC), United States of America Destination airport:Los Angeles International Airport, CA (LAX) (LAX/KLAX), United States of America Flightnumber: 084 Narrative:
While taxiing out in fog, the KAL crew became disoriented and ended up on the wrong runway. During the takeoff run, the aircraft collided head-on with South Central Air Flight 59, a Piper PA-31 which was taking off from runway 06L-24R for a flight to Kenai. The 9 occupants of N35206 were injured. The DC-10 overran the runway by 1434 feet and came to rest 40 feet right of the extended centreline.

PROBABLE CAUSE: "The failure of the pilot of Korean Air Lines Flight 084 to follow accepted procedures during taxi, which caused him to become disoriented while selecting the runway; the failure of the pilot to use the compass to confirm his position; and the decision of the pilot to take off when he was unsure that the aircraft was positioned on the correct runway. Contributing to the accident was the fog, which reduced visibility to a point that the pilot could not ascertain his position visually and the control tower personnel could not assist the pilot. Also contributing to the accident was a lack of legible taxiway and runway signs at several intersections passed by Flight 084 while it was taxiing."
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Old March 14th, 2012, 03:17 PM
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

Well that piece solidly shows that having the instrument is not important since even with it the pilots still don't use it.
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Old March 14th, 2012, 05:41 PM   #180
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

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Well that piece solidly shows that having the instrument is not important since even with it the pilots still don't use it.
Henning,

Your logic is baffling. I've argued (along with others) that during VFR conditions, reference to instruments may be warranted regardless of ceiling and visibility especially during the night. Someone points out an accident where the crew did not reference a basic instrument resulting in an accident and you state that having the instrument is not important since the accident occurred anyway? Duh. Did you miss the point of the crew having to reference the instrument for it to make a difference?

When did you become a troll?
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Old March 14th, 2012, 08:35 PM   #181
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

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[snip]

If you can't land without your panel on a nice VFR night on a lit runway safely -- you're too dependent on your panel.
Everyone please note this last sentence. It sums it up in a nutshell. Jesse is NOT saying "If you can't land without your panel on a nice VFR night on a lit runway safely, you're a dangerous pilot in serious need of retraining." He is saying you're too dependent on your panel, and I'd agree. Especially when in the pattern, IMO, most of your flying should be head out the window. Panel is there to help verify what you already know.

I would even argue that things are NOT that different in tough, circle-to-land, right at visibility mins. You still should be able to land without your panel (I guess everything failed right after you popped under), and you should still keep your eyes outside. Yes, you need to use your panel for verification, but in those low-vis, low-flying situations, you REALLY need to keep your eyes on the runway (and be ready to abort).
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Old March 15th, 2012, 03:00 PM   #182
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

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Henning,

Your logic is baffling. I've argued (along with others) that during VFR conditions, reference to instruments may be warranted regardless of ceiling and visibility especially during the night. Someone points out an accident where the crew did not reference a basic instrument resulting in an accident and you state that having the instrument is not important since the accident occurred anyway? Duh. Did you miss the point of the crew having to reference the instrument for it to make a difference?

When did you become a troll?
The day I was told I needed an instrument to land on a VFR night and then when I countered that I keep getting told about IFR situations and situations where if the pilots had proper training and ability in basic stick and rudder skills they could have avoided an accident that they had the "required" instrument for.

You don't need any instruments landing VFR day or night if you have a complete set of basic flying skills, end of story.
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Old March 15th, 2012, 03:03 PM   #183
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

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... a complete set of basic flying skills....
All we need do is define "a complete set of basic flying skills" and we'll be all set!
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Old March 15th, 2012, 03:13 PM   #184
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

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You don't need any instruments landing VFR day or night if you have a complete set of basic flying skills, end of story.
After 183 posts, I hope this really is the end of this story!!!!
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Old March 15th, 2012, 04:02 PM   #185
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

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Originally Posted by Henning View Post
The day I was told I needed an instrument to land on a VFR night and then when I countered that I keep getting told about IFR situations and situations where if the pilots had proper training and ability in basic stick and rudder skills they could have avoided an accident that they had the "required" instrument for.

You don't need any instruments landing VFR day or night if you have a complete set of basic flying skills, end of story.
I guess all those 10,000 hour ATPs that crashed in the night VFR simulator study lacked basic flying skills. I never posted anything about IFR scenarios, others did. I've always contended that on particularly dark nights in perfect VMC where there aren't a lot of lights on the ground, just seeing the runway lights and never crosschecking your instruments is a recipe for CFIT. You basic stick and rudder skills won't save you if you succumb to a night-time illusion and never realize it until you're a smoking hole in the ground. It's happened to better stick and rudder pilots than you, believe me.
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Old March 15th, 2012, 04:06 PM   #186
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

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Originally Posted by Henning View Post
The day I was told I needed an instrument to land on a VFR night and then when I countered that I keep getting told about IFR situations and situations where if the pilots had proper training and ability in basic stick and rudder skills they could have avoided an accident that they had the "required" instrument for.

You don't need any instruments landing VFR day or night if you have a complete set of basic flying skills, end of story.
So what you're saying since instruments are not required to land on a VFR night, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be affected by spatial disorientation AND land on the wrong runway..

Okay..gotcha now..

Interesting excerpt from JFK Jr's "probable cause" report:

According to AC
60-4A, "Pilot's Spatial Disorientation," tests conducted with qualified instrument pilots indicated that it can take as long as 35
seconds to establish full control by instruments after a loss of visual reference of the earth's surface.
AC 60-4A further states that
surface references and the natural horizon may become obscured even though visibility may be above VFR minimums and that an inability to
perceive the natural horizon or surface references is common during flights over water, at night, in sparsely populated areas, and in
low-visibility conditions. Examination of the airframe, systems, avionics, and engine did not reveal any evidence of a preimpact
mechanical malfunction.

Which is why I use the runway/panel/runway/panel scan I mentioned in earlier posts on all night landings.

But hey, that's just me..
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Old March 15th, 2012, 04:51 PM   #187
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

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I guess all those 10,000 hour ATPs that crashed in the night VFR simulator study lacked basic flying skills. I never posted anything about IFR scenarios, others did. I've always contended that on particularly dark nights in perfect VMC where there aren't a lot of lights on the ground, just seeing the runway lights and never crosschecking your instruments is a recipe for CFIT. You basic stick and rudder skills won't save you if you succumb to a night-time illusion and never realize it until you're a smoking hole in the ground. It's happened to better stick and rudder pilots than you, believe me.
Yes, I think the current batch of ATPs is lacking in basic skills, it's proven over and over, the ones in current contention are Colgan and AF447. The FAA it seems is also coming to this determination. My bet is that if aviation continues in the current vein spins will be required training again within 2 decades.

You can put in the time and practice to learn the visual cues and guard against the "illusions" which are mostly because of unfamiliarity.
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Last edited by Henning; March 15th, 2012 at 04:58 PM.
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Old March 15th, 2012, 06:56 PM   #188
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

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Yes, I think the current batch of ATPs is lacking in basic skills, it's proven over and over, the ones in current contention are Colgan and AF447. The FAA it seems is also coming to this determination. My bet is that if aviation continues in the current vein spins will be required training again within 2 decades.

You can put in the time and practice to learn the visual cues and guard against the "illusions" which are mostly because of unfamiliarity.
The Colgan and AF447 accidents have absolutely nothing to do with night illusions and spatial disorientation. Pilots make errors for a multitude of different reasons, poor stick and rudder skills are only one. The danger of an illusion is your mind is tricked into thinking you know what is happening when you do not. Knowing about them as I do, and having experienced some of them, I know that when visual cues are few, unless you are in the habit of confirming your attitude/condition of flight by referencing the instruments, you will simply believe the illusion and act on it. Everyone has experienced an illusion sitting next to another vehicle and then feeling you're the one moving when in actuality the other vehicle moved. I'm sure knowing about this illusion, you were the only person alive who didn't mash down on their brake pedal to stop your already stationary vehicle. The problem for most is you can't know you were not the vehicle in motion until you could confirm it by seeing past the other vehicle or looking out another window and seeing a motionless frame of reference. The instruments in an airplane provide that "other" frame of reference to counter night time illusions. You may in fact be above the visual glide slope or you may not be, is it an illusion or is it real? VASI, PAPI or a tuned ILS or a simple altimeter crosscheck might confirm what your eyeballs are telling you or it just might confirm you're experiencing an illusion. You won't know until it happens.
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Old March 15th, 2012, 07:12 PM   #189
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

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It's happened to better stick and rudder pilots than you, believe me.
No, because the only pilot better than Henning is Jesse, the World's Greatest Pilot!
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Old March 15th, 2012, 11:30 PM   #190
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

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The Colgan and AF447 accidents have absolutely nothing to do with night illusions and spatial disorientation. Pilots make errors for a multitude of different reasons, poor stick and rudder skills are only one. The danger of an illusion is your mind is tricked into thinking you know what is happening when you do not..
...but they have everything to do with inadequate skills....
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Old March 15th, 2012, 11:41 PM   #191
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

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...but they have everything to do with inadequate skills....
Exactly; and the skill set they have has a hollow base.
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Old March 15th, 2012, 11:49 PM
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

I've sprayed pivots in the dark and done plenty of other night flying, the dark does not really give me issues. I've worked the majority of my career at sea in darkness as well. There are techniques in perspective one learns to use to make definite determinations in the face of potential illusions. You don't learn them without practicing though and it helps if the person teaching you knows them as well.
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Old March 16th, 2012, 08:48 PM   #193
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Re: An Almost Base-Final Turn Accident

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If he came to me -- I'd cover up his attitude indicator, DG, airspeed indicator, and altimeter...and we'd master the pattern just like that.
Just turn off the panel lights. I've flown many patterns that way, because that's all we had to do. Even went to different airports, turned off the lights, and flew pattern with many different scenerios. I logged about 20 hours night, because that's the only time I could fly during the week, before my checkride. Even did a bunch of short soft field, engine out, practice with no panel lights. The 360* power off approach to land on a spot, with no instruments, in the pitch black, is interesting.
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