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-   -   New iLevil For iPads (http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57725)

Geico266 March 16th, 2013 12:05 PM

New iLevil For iPads
 
Levil Technology Announces New Handheld: AHRS, GPS, ADSB-in for GA iPad info and more, in palm-sized pilot’s tool

The new iLevil SW is a clean-sheet design, an iPad-compatible, fully self-contained “panel in the palm of your hand” device. This lightweight device gives attitude information; has a WAAS GPS for charts and synthetic vision; displays information from external hardware such as an engine monitors; and is an ADSB-in receiver. With a rechargeable 3-hour battery, it lasts longer than most flights; and it is rechargeable through a USB port – or by its built-in solar panel.

http://www.aviation.levil.com/AHRS_mini.htm

comanchepilot March 16th, 2013 12:14 PM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
these companies pricing is whack. Everyone else is charging $795 so we'll charge $795 and then add $200 for a $20 chip. Instead of charging $750 and including the $20 AHRS chip that gets them a pricing and value advantage in the market place. . . .

I do not understand the pricing decisions . . .

Armageddon Aviator March 16th, 2013 01:02 PM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
Well...this gadget is basically useless outside the U.S. since there is no ADS-B coverage elsewhere...

As for the AHRS, not a big asset if you're not flying IFR ( the Ipad gyros and accelerometers do a pretty decent job )...

At last, a toy I won't feel compelled to buy :D

write-stuff March 16th, 2013 01:33 PM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
Is this newer than their 2011 release?

write-stuff March 16th, 2013 01:34 PM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Armageddon Aviator (Post 1118615)
Well...this gadget is basically useless outside the U.S. since there is no ADS-B coverage elsewhere...

As for the AHRS, not a big asset if you're not flying IFR ( the Ipad gyros and accelerometers do a pretty decent job )...

At last, a toy I won't feel compelled to buy :D

Having a very high quality and highly accurate synthetic vision display on an iPad is pretty cool. Have to have an AHRS for that.

Armageddon Aviator March 16th, 2013 02:15 PM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by write-stuff (Post 1118626)
Having a very high quality and highly accurate synthetic vision display on an iPad is pretty cool. Have to have an AHRS for that.

The "synthetic vision" seems pretty accurate with the ipad's gyros...more than enough for my CVFR flying...

Maybe they should manufacture a Levil device with "AHRS only" ....I'd buy that for $ 200 bucks :D

ebetancourt March 16th, 2013 02:17 PM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
This is the device that will eventually allow me to kill the XM subscription. When it has been out awhile I will get one if the PIREPS are good. I have the iPod loaded to eliminate the 496 XM music, this will give me weather and an AHRS that can handle unusual attitudes. I pull the breakers on the gyros before engine start when going up for aerobatics, but I still wonder about their longevity. Having a backup would be good.

Ernie

write-stuff March 16th, 2013 03:27 PM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the iPad doesn't have any gyros and you certainly never calibrate it to level. Bank angle is implied from GPS movement and I doubt this will be very accurate.

JOhnH March 16th, 2013 03:28 PM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by comanchepilot (Post 1118590)
these companies pricing is whack. Everyone else is charging $795 so we'll charge $795 and then add $200 for a $20 chip. Instead of charging $750 and including the $20 AHRS chip that gets them a pricing and value advantage in the market place. . . .

I do not understand the pricing decisions . . .

I am not sure what part you don't understand. They set a price that they think will allow them to sell the most units at the highest price. The only tricky part is finding the elasticity center-point. But it is easier to lower prices later than to raise them so they start high and hope.

Prices have very little to do with cost to manufacture, except that the price has to be sufficiently higher than cost to manufacture and make a profit.

comanchepilot March 16th, 2013 11:54 PM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JOhnH (Post 1118660)
I am not sure what part you don't understand. They set a price that they think will allow them to sell the most units at the highest price. The only tricky part is finding the elasticity center-point. But it is easier to lower prices later than to raise them so they start high and hope.

Prices have very little to do with cost to manufacture, except that the price has to be sufficiently higher than cost to manufacture and make a profit.

Who are their competitors at the $795 price point? At least three. Excepting Stratus. So how do they stand out? What is special? And thats only for the AHRS - if you want GPS/ADS=B it is $1200 . ..

wickedsprint March 17th, 2013 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by write-stuff (Post 1118659)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the iPad doesn't have any gyros and you certainly never calibrate it to level. Bank angle is implied from GPS movement and I doubt this will be very accurate.

I think you're wrong.

darrell March 17th, 2013 04:27 AM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
Yeah current iDevices have a three-axis gyro in addition to the three-axis accelerometer.

For more info you can search for "mems gyro" to see how it works.

write-stuff March 17th, 2013 06:42 AM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by darrell (Post 1118965)
Yeah current iDevices have a three-axis gyro.

Any idea how it calibrates level?

darrell March 17th, 2013 12:05 PM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by write-stuff (Post 1118971)
Any idea how it calibrates level?

In an iDevice? You don't calibrate it. It is calibrated when the chip is built. One could argue that MEMS gyroscopes are so sensitive and stable that they don't need to be calibrated (They are quite resistant to drift over time and temperature compared to "typical" gyroscopes). One could also argue that all gyroscopes must have the ability to be calibrated in order to be used in aviation applications. I would argue that the point is moot as iDevices are obviously not certified to be relied upon in any aviation application.

That being said, it seems like a "good enough" solution in the majority of cases, and it's definitely cheaper...by a long margin.

sailbv@gmail.com March 20th, 2013 10:40 AM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
For an all in one package of WAAS, AHRS, ADS-B and if it should work with apps it gives another level of safety even in VFR (consider VFR night and vacuum failures!).
And an added benefit for a single package: one wire for power (optional) since it does wireless to multiple devices (and optionally bluetooth, I think for android).
The iPad does give some ahrs but I would only trust the gps-derived heading really.

anandaleon March 20th, 2013 11:00 AM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
Hey Pilots,

I work at Levil and would like to offer my perspective on this discussion. I will try to hit all the points discussed before this post.

- The link provided on the first post is misleading. It will take you to our AHRS-G mini, which is AHRS only. The iLevil combines all three, AHRS, GPS and ADS-B in: http://www.aviation.levil.com/iLevil.htm

- The most expensive part of the iLevil is the AHRS, not the ADS-B. Why? Because calibration of the gyros is absolutely necessary if you want to a have a reliable attitude indicator. Calibrating each individual board is an extensive and delicate process. ADS-B is just a circuit board.

- The price of the iLevil can only go up from here. To put things in perspective, the cheapest battery powered AHRS out there (aside from ours) is $1400 from Dynon (non-certified). The next one is $2500 from RC Allen (certified). This is only pitch, bank and heading. The cheapest ADS-B is $500 from SkyRadar. The iLevil at $1200 has GPS navigation, ADS-B weather and traffic, AHRS and WiFi communication. It also acts as a WiFi portal for external hardware such as Engine monitors and Zaon traffic so you can basically have all your cockpit information on your tablet.

- Yes the iLevil is useless outside the US (at least the ADS-B part). That's why we offer the AHRS-G mini.

- In theory, the internal gyros of iDevices could potentially work. However, calibration and proper algorithms play a big part on performance. We could use our algorithms and apply the same calibration process to each iPad and obtain the same results. But in practice, it is easier to have an external AHRS.

- Levil is a small company dedicated to AHRS development and manufacture. Everything is done in house and we are proud to have the "Made in the US" stamp. Outsourcing the job would potentially lower prices, but so far our customers are very satisfied with our product quality and price.

Hope I was able to clear up some of the confusion and that you have a better understanding of our price choices. I'll be updating some videos to the website on how the iLevil works, check it out!

Ananda :goofy:

jesse March 20th, 2013 12:09 PM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
FWIW i've never seen an iPad based gyro application work reliably for attitude information in an airplane for much length of time throughout most flight profiles.

Armageddon Aviator March 20th, 2013 01:01 PM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by write-stuff (Post 1118971)
Any idea how it calibrates level?

I use the Air Navigation Pro app, it requires calibration before every flight ( you simply put the Ipad on a flat surface and click "calibrate"....)

Armageddon Aviator March 20th, 2013 03:22 PM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jesse (Post 1121595)
FWIW i've never seen an iPad based gyro application work reliably for attitude information in an airplane for much length of time throughout most flight profiles.

I would not hesitate buying the Levil AHRS if I did any amount of IFR flying...

The Ipad's gyros are a nice gadget, but I wouldn't bet my life on them...

jesse March 20th, 2013 03:50 PM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Armageddon Aviator (Post 1121742)
I would not hesitate buying the Levil AHRS if I did any amount of IFR flying...

The Ipad's gyros are a nice gadget, but I wouldn't bet my life on them...

I personally have no interest in having any source of attitude information in a cockpit that I don't trust. VFR or IFR.

alaskaflyer March 20th, 2013 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesse (Post 1121773)
I personally have no interest in having any source of attitude information in a cockpit that I don't trust. VFR or IFR.

I wonder if the new iDevice gyros can be any worse than legacy electric or vacuum gyro panel instruments.

jesse March 21st, 2013 11:08 AM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alaskaflyer (Post 1121872)
I wonder if the new iDevice gyros can be any worse than legacy electric or vacuum gyro panel instruments.

If they are using the internal gyro then yes they will be way worse. With external I doubt they're even as good. Real gyros work reliably for many many many hours. iPad apps crash before real gyros fail.

alaskaflyer March 21st, 2013 11:44 AM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jesse (Post 1122381)
If they are using the internal gyro then yes they will be way worse. With external I doubt they're even as good. Real gyros work reliably for many many many hours. iPad apps crash before real gyros fail.

I guess I meant less accurate, though you are right reliability is a factor too.

jesse March 21st, 2013 12:39 PM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alaskaflyer (Post 1122419)
I guess I meant less accurate, though you are right reliability is a factor too.

A properly implemented system with an external gyro I think could be as accurate or quite likely more accurate. But I'd still bet less reliable.

Using the internal "gyro" I don't think there is any way you're going to get as accurate. Or even accurate enough to be safe.

chopperman March 22nd, 2013 05:11 PM

Re: New iLevil For iPads
 
What I am more interested in is the engine manganement options. I have not seen any detailed information on how to get CHT/EGT/RPMS/Fuel Flow into the device but you guys do mention it.


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