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gcd89
September 2nd, 2012, 12:03 AM
So I have an XC coming up.

My flight instructor want it to be from here, a towered field, to an untowered. I know how to get Bravo services/flight following there, but once I land at the uncontrolled, then what?

Which controlling frequency do I call for flight following on the way back?

N801BH
September 2nd, 2012, 12:12 AM
So I have an XC coming up.

My flight instructor want it to be from here, a towered field, to an untowered. I know how to get Bravo services/flight following there, but once I land at the uncontrolled, then what?

Which controlling frequency do I call for flight following on the way back?\\

If you are just reversing course then the freqs should work for the return flight... The freqs are listed on the sectional too.

John221us
September 2nd, 2012, 12:35 AM
\\

If you are just reversing course then the freqs should work for the return flight... The freqs are listed on the sectional too.

+1 just switch back to the channel they dropped you from before landing. If you lose that, it is on the sectional or can be easily referenced from a Garmin or iPad app, if you have that. If there are several in the area (my airport has three, depending on which direction you are heading) it is not a big deal if you get it wrong. They will just switch you.

jason
September 2nd, 2012, 01:03 AM
As other's have said. Just use the last frequency that you used going in. It's also in the A/FD under "Communications -> APP/DEP Control". It could be an approach/departure frequency from a nearby airport or the center frequency.

For instance, take a look at this page from the A/FD. David City is near Lincoln, so they list Lincoln approach. While Fairbury isn't near a major airport, so you'd have to call Minneapolis Center.

You can find this frequency in many many many places including charts and apps.





http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27284&stc=1&d=1346558771

jpower
September 2nd, 2012, 01:21 AM
And if all else fails (say, your A/FD didn't make it into your flight bag and you don't have a frequency), you can always call up an area tower and tell him the same thing you'd tell anyone. In my case, it would be, "Easton Tower, Tecnam XXXXX, southeast bound towards Crisfield, can you suggest a frequency for advisories?" There's not really "aviation speak" for that, as far as I'm aware, so English always works :)

But of course, there's no need to be all fancy if you remember the frequency you were on before advisory.

Mafoo
September 2nd, 2012, 02:28 AM
Why did I think that the required XC's needed to be to a controlled tower?

Henning
September 2nd, 2012, 07:43 AM
So I have an XC coming up.

My flight instructor want it to be from here, a towered field, to an untowered. I know how to get Bravo services/flight following there, but once I land at the uncontrolled, then what?

Which controlling frequency do I call for flight following on the way back?

The same one that handed you off to local inbound is a good place to start. If not, you should have a low altitude enroute chart that will show a frequency for your sector, climb to at least 1200' before you start calling there.

Ron Levy
September 2nd, 2012, 12:22 PM
Why did I think that the required XC's needed to be to a controlled tower?Perhaps because you confused the requirement to make "Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower" in the solo requirements with the dual XC requirements. A careful re-read of 61.109(a) should help. Also, when the trainee is based at a nontowered airport with no towered airport nearby, sometimes the instructor will do a dual XC to a towered airport, get out while the trainee does the three solo trips around the pattern, and then get back in for the second half of the dual XC home -- maybe that's what you were thinking about.

MAKG1
September 2nd, 2012, 12:54 PM
Why did I think that the required XC's needed to be to a controlled tower?

You need some training at towered airports. If you train at a nontowered airport, this will be an issue.

The cross-country has no requirements for towered vs. nontowered. In fact, if training at a towered airport, the nontowered practice is a good thing.

Beware: the A/FD can be WRONG. I've had this happen to me -- dead silence on all published app/dep frequencies. CTAF worked, so it wasn't the radio. It also wasn't reception, as the problem persisted at 10,000 AGL over towered airports using the same departure frequency! Apparently this is common in the central Sierra foothills.

The correct approach frequency is NOT on the sectional. Only for Class B and C primary airports (though you can use these to find the correct frequency -- and sometimes it is correct, though you can't know this from the sectional). It's in the A/FD.

The previous frequency usually works. If there is reception but the frequency is wrong because you just passed a boundary (for instance), you'll just get told the correct frequency. No big deal. If the frequency is dead, you can contact a nearby tower (if there is any) or FSS.

Henning
September 2nd, 2012, 01:19 PM
The Low Altitude Enroute chart is a good thing to use even on a VFR XC. There is nothing that prohibits their use or approach plates.

gcd89
September 2nd, 2012, 04:25 PM
The Low Altitude Enroute chart is a good thing to use even on a VFR XC. There is nothing that prohibits their use or approach plates.

Yeah, my CFI just wants me to focus on the usage, communications, etc of Bravo services and stuff because the examiner is really big on that, and I've only used it once or twice. The examiner failed a student for screwing up on it...

So, on the way back just call up whoever I was handed off to last, and request flight following back my departure airport (KPIE in this case)?

Henning
September 2nd, 2012, 04:32 PM
Yeah, my CFI just wants me to focus on the usage, communications, etc of Bravo services and stuff because the examiner is really big on that, and I've only used it once or twice. The examiner failed a student for screwing up on it...

So, on the way back just call up whoever I was handed off to last, and request flight following back my departure airport (KPIE in this case)?

If you have the Low Altitude Enroute Chart with you on your check ride you will be able to quickly ascertain that answer. Tell your instructor to introduce you to that chart.

MAKG1
September 2nd, 2012, 07:04 PM
If you have the Low Altitude Enroute Chart with you on your check ride you will be able to quickly ascertain that answer. Tell your instructor to introduce you to that chart.

That will only work if flight following services are being provided by an ARTCC. There are several extended areas (as in, big hunks of entire states) were that isn't true. Compare the A/FD entry for KLVK to the L-2 or L-3 enroute chart. The answer is different (and the A/FD is right, this time). The terminal procedures appear correct, but I don't see the value of going there over the A/FD.

Even with an ARTCC, boundaries are not shown on the chart, so there is some guessing. You're not guaranteed coverage at low altitude (below the MEA for some nearby airway), so even guessing, you may get dead air from all guesses. The MEA is often excessively high for a VFR flight.

The correct answer is to contact whoever you can think of -- these frequencies, terminal approach, FSS, maybe Tower for some nearby airport, whatever frequency you had to start. And you still may not be able to make contact. Flight following is not considered an essential service. It's a really good idea.

Yet another possibility is that you may make contact, and get ignored. All facilities have IFR separation as a higher priority, and workload saturation will dump you off the end. And remember that you can't enter Class C or D if this happens (unless you have heard your tail number back at you).

35 AoA
September 2nd, 2012, 08:04 PM
Whenever I go on a cross-country, I keep a log on my kneeboard card of the freq changes. Not only does this help me roll back to a previous freq if I have trouble getting the next agency, but it also gives me a comm plan for the return trip if I end up going both ways. Just a thought.

RV10flyer
September 2nd, 2012, 11:49 PM
Getting flt following enroute...I use the nearest tower, NRST func of Garmin 496 or 430W. Also my Ipad with Foreflight- Airport Info or Low Enroute Chart. If one does not work I try another.

Like above poster, I also write all freq down on long xc. May come in handy for the return trip.

nosehair
September 3rd, 2012, 08:54 AM
Yeah, my CFI just wants me to focus on the usage, communications, etc of Bravo services and stuff because the examiner is really big on that, and I've only used it once or twice. The examiner failed a student for screwing up on it...

So, on the way back just call up whoever I was handed off to last, and request flight following back my departure airport (KPIE in this case)?Just calling up whoever handed you off is the most common action, but may not always be correct. Or, it may be correct, but may not work, so there are other options. Your instructor and the examiner want you to be able to use all available information to determine the various courses of action which have been suggested here.

Refer to FAR 91.103 PreFlight Action: Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.

Not just in your local area, but anywhere in the nation. In the available publications.

Henning
September 3rd, 2012, 12:41 PM
That will only work if flight following services are being provided by an ARTCC.

:sigh: The chart will always have a frequency you can use to get the ball rolling, that is what the examiner is looking for, not the correct frequency but that you can get help started. If you can find a frequency to use in multiple places, all the better.

The Low Altitude Enroute chart has a lot of easy to spot info on it, there is no reason not to have it, it is a tool in your bag.

Same on the oral, you don't need to know every answer, you need to know where to find every answer. There will come a line of questions that ends up in some obscure minutia, this is because the answer the examiner is trying to get out of you is, "I don't know, I'd have to look that up in...".

weilke
September 3rd, 2012, 03:20 PM
I read in some youtube comments that there is a $150 fine for asking for fight following on the wrong frequency.

bbchien
September 3rd, 2012, 03:22 PM
I read in some youtube comments that there is a $150 fine for asking for fight following on the wrong frequency.(!?!). My Mastercard is NOT on file with Lock Mart.

Henning
September 3rd, 2012, 03:45 PM
I read in some youtube comments that there is a $150 fine for asking for fight following on the wrong frequency.

That the comment exists is not a surprise, my question to you is,"Do you believe it?" Everytime I have called on the wrong freq all I have had in response is "for your location try Xxx on xxx.xx." Never even copped an attitude for calling the wrong guy.

flyingron
September 3rd, 2012, 03:52 PM
Well since there isn't anywhere that DEFINES what frequency provides radar service to VFR's anyhow, it's doubtful there's a statutorily WRONG frequency (well I guess doing something blatantly silly like 121.5). The info in the comm box, on the approach plate, on the IFR charts, etc... is only a reasonable best guess. Frankly, I've never heard any controller have any issue, just a "for advisories where you are, try Metropolis Approach on 125.8"

weilke
September 3rd, 2012, 04:26 PM
That the comment exists is not a surprise, my question to you is,"Do you believe it?" Everytime I have called on the wrong freq all I have had in response is "for your location try Xxx on xxx.xx." Never even copped an attitude for calling the wrong guy.

Of course there is no penalty.By the intensity of this thread, one could start to believe that there is one. Most areas up and down the east coast, if you are below 10k and call up on the center frequency lissted on the low altitude chart, you'll be referred to the approach facility that covers the airspace. There is no 'wrong' frquency, if you can hear the facility and they can hear you, they'll give you a friendly and professional referral to the right facility, no fee involved.

gcd89
September 3rd, 2012, 04:50 PM
The correct answer is to contact whoever you can think of -- these frequencies, terminal approach, FSS, maybe Tower for some nearby airport, whatever frequency you had to start. And you still may not be able to make contact. Flight following is not considered an essential service. It's a really good idea.

Yet another possibility is that you may make contact, and get ignored. All facilities have IFR separation as a higher priority, and workload saturation will dump you off the end. And remember that you can't enter Class C or D if this happens (unless you have heard your tail number back at you).

I understand this, but I'm prepping for the exam, and the examiner is really big on bravo services, so I need to learn it.

Henning
September 3rd, 2012, 05:14 PM
I understand this, but I'm prepping for the exam, and the examiner is really big on bravo services, so I need to learn it.

What are "Bravo Services"? I've never heard of them. They are the same services every controller offers in the system, same within the Bravo as outside the Bravo. The only difference inside Bravo airspace from any other below 18,000' is that you need a clearance to be there.

weilke
September 3rd, 2012, 05:56 PM
What are "Bravo Services"? I've never heard of them. They are the same services every controller offers in the system, same within the Bravo as outside the Bravo. The only difference inside Bravo airspace from any other below 18,000' is that you need a clearance to be there.

AIM chapter 4:

4-1-18. Terminal Radar Services for VFR Aircraft


d. Class B Service. This service provides, in addition to basic radar service, approved separation of aircraft based on IFR, VFR, and/or weight, and sequencing of VFR arrivals to the primary airport(s).

Henning
September 3rd, 2012, 06:49 PM
AIM chapter 4:

4-1-18. Terminal Radar Services for VFR Aircraft


d. Class B Service. This service provides, in addition to basic radar service, approved separation of aircraft based on IFR, VFR, and/or weight, and sequencing of VFR arrivals to the primary airport(s).

How are they different from the services provided in other controlled airspace?

weilke
September 3rd, 2012, 07:10 PM
How are they different from the services provided in other controlled airspace?

Anywhere else as a VFR aircraft you get 'basic radar service:

1. In addition to the use of radar for the control of IFR aircraft, all commissioned radar facilities provide the following basic radar services for VFR aircraft:
(a) Safety alerts.
(b) Traffic advisories.
(c) Limited radar vectoring (on a workload permitting basis).
(d) Sequencing at locations where procedures have been established for this purpose and/or when covered by a Letter of Agreement.



Around an approach facility with an established TRSA you get:



b. TRSA Service (Radar Sequencing and Separation Service for VFR Aircraft in a TRSA).

....The purpose of this service is to provide separation between all participating VFR aircraft and all IFR aircraft operating within the airspace defined as the Terminal Radar Service Area (TRSA). Pilot participation is urged but is not mandatory.....


Around a class C airport you get: 'Class C service'


c. Class C Service. This service provides, in addition to basic radar service, approved separation between IFR and VFR aircraft, and sequencing of VFR arrivals to the primary airport.


The main difference between basic and class B or class C is the sequencing and an attempt to provide separation, at times outside of the area of the actuall class B or C airspace (I believe it is called 'outer area').


(then there is also 'MRSA' (mystery radar service). That is if nothing is published on the sectional but when you call up tower, you get referred to a military operated approach facility. Places that I have experienced that are Bismarck, ND, Grand Forks, ND Sioux City, IA)

Henning
September 3rd, 2012, 07:22 PM
How are these services different? You are either working in the system or not. If you understand how to take instruction from one controller, it's the same as taking instruction from another controller. The differences aren't in the services, the differences are in what is permissible outside of services.

EppyGA
September 3rd, 2012, 07:44 PM
So I have an XC coming up.

My flight instructor want it to be from here, a towered field, to an untowered. I know how to get Bravo services/flight following there, but once I land at the uncontrolled, then what?

Which controlling frequency do I call for flight following on the way back?

One of the easiest may be that just before you cancel services before you land at the uncontrolled field is to ask what frequency you should use after you take off again.

weilke
September 3rd, 2012, 08:02 PM
How are these services different? You are either working in the system or not. If you understand how to take instruction from one controller, it's the same as taking instruction from another controller. The differences aren't in the services, the differences are in what is permissible outside of services.

The difference is that under 'basic radar service', the controller is just concerned with getting you from bumping into other IFR aircraft. With class B or class C, he also lines you up for arrival to his airport. For you as a customer, it probably makes little difference.

Henning
September 3rd, 2012, 08:09 PM
The difference is that under 'basic radar service', the controller is just concerned with getting you from bumping into other IFR aircraft. With class B or class C, he also lines you up for arrival to his airport. For you as a customer, it probably makes little difference.

Exactly, it makes no difference to the consumer, services are services, and as long as they are VMC they are still see and avoid regardless any services. As for the Class B frequency and where to find it, it's still on the LAE chart.

JoeSelch
September 3rd, 2012, 08:10 PM
Here's a question (and possible hijack) - I'm not understanding why the OP is concerned specifically about Bravo services (other than that it's allegedly important to his DPE) ... what's so special about them or his situation that would make him more concerned about them than other ATC services?

weilke
September 3rd, 2012, 08:36 PM
Exactly, it makes no difference to the consumer, services are services, and as long as they are VMC they are still see and avoid regardless any services. As for the Class B frequency and where to find it, it's still on the LAE chart.

The area to which an approach facility (tracon or military) provides loa services is not readily apparent from the L-chart. It's probably a good guess that within 30 miles or so it is going to be approach rather than center.

MAKG1
September 4th, 2012, 01:10 PM
I flew into KTVL yesterday. Oakland Center covers the airspace, and they dropped me as I crossed Echo Pass.

Having said that, I did get flight following upon leaving, but Center had a lot of trouble finding me on radar,as I was below the mountain peaks avoiding turbulence for as long as I could be. To their substantial credit, they accepted my position reports and provided several traffic advisories anyway. I thoroughly expected to get dropped or refused, but the workload appeared to be light in that sector (the sector around KOAK was another story entirely, but I didn't get dropped their, either). They clearly didn't see everything; there were at least two gliders flying around 1000 feet below, as I crossed over KTRK. But they gave me a nice warning and heading/altitude advisory about the 182 approaching on my 6.

N801BH
September 5th, 2012, 06:05 PM
(then there is also 'MRSA' (mystery radar service). That is if nothing is published on the sectional but when you call up tower, you get referred to a military operated approach facility. Places that I have experienced that are Bismarck, ND, Grand Forks, ND Sioux City, IA)[/SIZE]

You will get that @ KRAP too... Ellsworth approach will provide radar services to Rapid City SD.

flyingron
September 6th, 2012, 11:13 AM
How are they different from the services provided in other controlled airspace?

VFR doesn't get positive separation in any other controlled airspace.

Henning
September 6th, 2012, 04:42 PM
VFR doesn't get positive separation in any other controlled airspace.

How does that effect the pilot? He still has to watch out.

Artiom
September 7th, 2012, 03:23 AM
On the last call from flight following like "Cessna12345 Radar service terminated, sqwuak VFR, frequency change approved, have a good day" I ask controller "after take off from XYZ what frequency should I use to pick up flight following?". They usually come back saying "for flight following call ABC center on 123.45"