PDA

View Full Version : Busting Bravo Airspace


Moxie
June 21st, 2005, 12:43 AM
I normally fly in Class D, and avoid Class B like the plague. Talk about an behaving like an amateur:

So... I had to fly to KFCM in Minneapolis' airspace on Saturday for Janie's funeral. Flying in the controller reminded me to stay under 4,500 feet. ... no problemo. Departing, I can't even remember what the controller said, "remain VFR" or something like that.

Anyway, I'm tootling along, planning, and having announced my plan, to go to 5,500. I get up to 4,400 and the controller gets on and reams me a new one, telling me not to bust 4,500.

And then gets on again ten minutes later and reams me a new one .... again... and lets me know that any other controller would've written me up.

Sigh... the moral of this story is to not get distracted, and no matter how out of practice you are, watch your altitudes. Man, I was a duffus. But the good news is that I greased all of my landings.

Sigh.... how embarrassing.... good thing it wasn't the ADIZ. Yikes! Just me and a couple of jets.

Moxie

bbchien
June 21st, 2005, 12:51 AM
Yoikes! Paste the Class B map up on the Hammer glareshield!

Moxie
June 21st, 2005, 12:58 AM
Yoikes! Paste the Class B map up on the Hammer glareshield!

Just putting my thinking cap on would've helped a ton.

Moxie, Moxie, Moxie. Tut, tut.

GL1100
June 21st, 2005, 12:59 AM
Normally they aren't so "tight by the book" @ MSP, but then they did have the Pres. to deal with on Friday which tends to get controllers worked up
Glad you greased the landings, I like going in and out of Flying Cloud easy area to navigate

sshekels
June 21st, 2005, 07:48 AM
Ok, I'm confused. FCM is just under a 3K shelf, and departing to the west/south you are pretty quickly in a 4K shelf. If he told you to stay under 4.5, then he MUST have cleared you for Bravo, right?

Also, from your post, it sounds like you hit 4.4, when he told you to stay under 4.5. Whats the bust?

Arnold
June 21st, 2005, 08:22 AM
File a NASA ASR report. Who knows if that controller's supervisor saw what happened and wasn't in such a good mood about it? Even the best pilots make mistakes, we are after all human, allowing others to learn from your mistakes is a mitzvah, posting here and filing an ASR will qualify you as a mench.

bbchien
June 21st, 2005, 09:45 AM
File a NASA ASR report. Who knows if that controller's supervisor saw what happened and wasn't in such a good mood about it? Even the best pilots make mistakes, we are after all human, allowing others to learn from your mistakes is a mitzvah, posting here and filing an ASR will qualify you as a mench.Here's the link, Moxie:

Moxie
June 21st, 2005, 10:10 AM
Here's the link, Moxie:

On the other hand, will I get that controller in trouble if I file the form because he *didn't* report me and he maybe should've?

And no, technically I didn't bust the space, but I sure would've about two seconds later if the controller hadn't stopped me.

I was wrong, he was right. My head was in the clouds. Bad me. No excuses. It certainly will never happen again.

Jeff Oslick
June 21st, 2005, 10:36 AM
On the other hand, will I get that controller in trouble if I file the form because he *didn't* report me and he maybe should've?

And no, technically I didn't bust the space, but I sure would've about two seconds later if the controller hadn't stopped me.

I was wrong, he was right. My head was in the clouds. Bad me. No excuses. It certainly will never happen again.

Moxie-

I had a similar bad day about 8 years ago here in LA. I'd go ahead and file the ASRS just to be safe, it will take 10-15 minutes. The chance of anyone hearing anything in person about this in the future is virtually nil, I wouldn't worry much at all about the controller getting in trouble - especially if you're saying you never really busted the airspace.

An important thing about ASRS is that it also allows us to file what the safety industry calls "near miss" reports. Not the same terminology as we use for "near miss" though. Safety studies show that for every accident, there are many smaller incidents, and for each incident, there are many "near misses" that were almost incidents. You were able to cut the chain early in the process, and understanding how and how often this happens is an important part of what ASRS can do.

Jeff

Ron Levy
June 21st, 2005, 11:24 AM
On the other hand, will I get that controller in trouble if I file the form because he *didn't* report me and he maybe should've?Absolutely not (unless there's something you didn't tell us). ASRS reports may not be used for enforcement purposes unless:

1. It was a deliberate act.
2. A criminal act was involved.
3. It is associated with a reportable accident.

Even if you are reported by the controller, the FAA can't use your ASRS report against you. Further, if you file the report, even if the FAA hears about it some other way (say, by a Pilot Deviation or "PD" report from ATC), you get immunity from sanctions (i.e., no suspension) unless the action involved one of the three items above, or you filed it more than 10 days after the occurrence, or you already got ASRS immunity in another enforcement action within the past five years (although the FAA can still put the violation on your record). See http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/immunity_nf.htm for the details on immunity.

Greebo
June 21st, 2005, 11:36 AM
Also it bears pointing out that the ASRS filing is done WITHOUT any identifying data. NASA takes the form, files the pertinent info, and sends the personal information section back to you, which you retain.

IF the FAA comes to you about the incident, its up to you to provide them with the proof that you filed the ASRS, using that information strip that is returned to you with the ASRS ID on it.

Yes, I have my own ASRS strip. ;)

SCCutler
June 21st, 2005, 11:57 AM
Also it bears pointing out that the ASRS filing is done WITHOUT any identifying data. NASA takes the form, files the pertinent info, and sends the personal information section back to you, which you retain.

IF the FAA comes to you about the incident, its up to you to provide them with the proof that you filed the ASRS, using that information strip that is returned to you with the ASRS ID on it.

Yes, I have my own ASRS strip. ;)

...as do I, for an nearly-identical circumstance.

File it. Each ASRS contribution adds a little piece to the puzzle of increased aviation safety.

/s/ Spike

Anthony
June 21st, 2005, 12:12 PM
Moxie,

I can sometimes repeat back what the controller says word for word, then totally forget what he/she just told me. When entering or departing B or C airpspace, I make sure to write the instructions down on my kneeboard. Even operating VFR out of B or C its almost like an IFR clearance, with altitude restrictions, vectors, squawk codes and a few different radio freq's thrown in for good measure. We have enough to do just flying the plane sometimes to remember all that.

gismo
June 21st, 2005, 03:06 PM
On the other hand, will I get that controller in trouble if I file the form because he *didn't* report me and he maybe should've?

And no, technically I didn't bust the space, but I sure would've about two seconds later if the controller hadn't stopped me.

I was wrong, he was right. My head was in the clouds. Bad me. No excuses. It certainly will never happen again.

ASRS data isn't supposed to be used to bust pilots or controllers (they can file them too) unless an accident occurs or the action was deliberate. Since neither was the case here there can be no harm in filing a report and I strongly recommend you do so. You only have 10 days from the incident so do it today. By filing you will not get any controllers in trouble for not reporting, trust me.

gismo
June 21st, 2005, 03:17 PM
Ok, I'm confused. FCM is just under a 3K shelf, and departing to the west/south you are pretty quickly in a 4K shelf. If he told you to stay under 4.5, then he MUST have cleared you for Bravo, right?

Also, from your post, it sounds like you hit 4.4, when he told you to stay under 4.5. Whats the bust?

I was wondering the same thing. If ATC cleared you into the Class B with an altitude restriction (remain at or below 4500) or an absolute altitude (maintain 4500) it's a bust if you deviate more than 300 ft in a restricted direction, but unless the result was a loss of separation, you aren't likley to get into trouble beyond some words from the controller. OTOH if you weren't cleared into the Class B at all, exceeding the floor by one foot is a most serious transgression, and if you didn't get reported it was because the controller was allergic to paperwork.

The highest shelf in the MSP Class B is 4000 ft like Scott posted. Were you cleared into the airspace (magic words are: Cleared into Class Bravo...)? Or were you actually beyond the lateral limits and receiving traffic advisories? If the latter, you may have atracted the ire of the controller by flying higher than he "assigned", but IMO they have no authority to control your altitude outside the Class B under VFR and you could always cancel advisories then climb to any legal altitude you want.

Ed Guthrie
June 21st, 2005, 04:34 PM
but IMO they have no authority to control your altitude outside the Class B under VFR and you could always cancel advisories then climb to any legal altitude you want.

Quite the contrary. If you receive an altitude instruction you are required to comply anywhere that air traffic control is exercised (B-space or not).

91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.

(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

ejensen
June 21st, 2005, 05:25 PM
Quite the contrary. If you receive an altitude instruction you are required to comply anywhere that air traffic control is exercised (B-space or not).

91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.

(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

You can TRY to cancel but I've had them refuse. '4MP stay with me a little longer for traffice'. Then dump me fast when they were ready.

Moxie
June 21st, 2005, 09:16 PM
I must've just clipped the 4,000' ceiling.... and he graciously just told me to stay where I was.

This is pathetic. I can't believe I waltzed into Class B airspace so inexactly.

It's not been my MO in the past, and it certainly never will be again. All I can say is that I had a serious brain fart.... please don't let it happen to any of you.

And yes, I'm putting "The Form" into the mail tomorrow. ... thanks for the link Dr. Bruce.

bbchien
June 21st, 2005, 10:10 PM
Moxie be careful not to put something incriminating in the title. FAA can use the TITLE in an enforcement, because that is not part of the report and is publically visible. You'll get the once in five years get of of jail free card anyway, though.

Graueradler
June 22nd, 2005, 12:06 AM
Going to or coming from a funeral is a time when your thoughts are not going to be focused on what you are doing, like flying a plane. Travel to and from an emotional event is an activity that should raise danger flags. I had a similar experience recently while driving from the hotel to a close relative's funeral in which I saw a red traffic light but its siignificance just didn't register until I had some sudden and loud input from my wife. I went skiding into the intersection and was very thankful that no one was coming the other way. I stayed out of the plane for a week. I'm sure that it fits one of the categories in the "I AM SAFE" checklist but I can't remember what the letters stand for. I'm guessing that the "S" is for stress and the "E" is for emotional. Either of both of those would apply.

Ed Guthrie
June 22nd, 2005, 06:51 AM
Going to or coming from a funeral is a time when your thoughts are not going to be focused on what you are doing, like flying a plane. Travel to and from an emotional event is an activity that should raise danger flags. I had a similar experience recently while driving from the hotel to a close relative's funeral in which I saw a red traffic light but its siignificance just didn't register until I had some sudden and loud input from my wife. I went skiding into the intersection and was very thankful that no one was coming the other way. I stayed out of the plane for a week. I'm sure that it fits one of the categories in the "I AM SAFE" checklist but I can't remember what the letters stand for. I'm guessing that the "S" is for stress and the "E" is for emotional. Either of both of those would apply.

I M SAFE

I = Illness
M = Medication
S= Stress
A = Alcohol
F = Fatigue
E = Eating

Ref: Aviation Instructor's Handbook, FAA-H-8083-9, p. 9-13.

Excellent advice above. BTW, the only automobile accident I've caused in the past 30 years was while driving back to UCLA Medical to visit my dying father.

gismo
June 23rd, 2005, 02:43 PM
Quite the contrary. If you receive an altitude instruction you are required to comply anywhere that air traffic control is exercised (B-space or not).

91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.

(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

Yeah, we've been round this before, but I still think it's nonsense to expect that you're bound to the last utterance of a controller outside of positively controlled airspace. Once he says "radar service terminated" when you cancel advisories, I strongly believe you're free to go where you want. I suppose you could make a case where ATC "wouldn't let" let you cancel, but I've never had that happen.

Also I think that you'll find that an approach controller isn't really supposed to assign altitudes in Class G or E to VFR traffic according to their rules. I'm pretty certain this was clarified by the FAA somewhere (FAQ? AC?) but for the life of me I can't remember where exactly. YRMV.

Ed Guthrie
June 23rd, 2005, 04:26 PM
Yeah, we've been round this before, but I still think it's nonsense to expect that you're bound to the last utterance of a controller outside of positively controlled airspace. Once he says "radar service terminated" when you cancel advisories, I strongly believe you're free to go where you want.

No argument from me on that point--in fact, I'll further state that under the stated conditions you are free to do as you please in controlled airspace, too.

I suppose you could make a case where ATC "wouldn't let" let you cancel, but I've never had that happen.

I think that is indeed the discussion and yes, I've had it happen.

azure
June 24th, 2005, 12:20 PM
Also I think that you'll find that an approach controller isn't really supposed to assign altitudes in Class G or E to VFR traffic according to their rules. I'm pretty certain this was clarified by the FAA somewhere (FAQ? AC?) but for the life of me I can't remember where exactly. YRMV.Not sure about this... I've definitely been given assigned altitudes by MBS Approach well outside even the lateral boundaries of their Class D airspace. I'm pretty sure that it was always within their TRSA though, maybe that makes a difference?

Liz

AdamZ
June 25th, 2005, 08:24 PM
Going to or coming from a funeral is a time when your thoughts are not going to be focused on what you are doing, like flying a plane. Travel to and from an emotional event is an activity that should raise danger flags. I had a similar experience recently while driving from the hotel to a close relative's funeral in which I saw a red traffic light but its siignificance just didn't register until I had some sudden and loud input from my wife. I went skiding into the intersection and was very thankful that no one was coming the other way. I stayed out of the plane for a week. I'm sure that it fits one of the categories in the "I AM SAFE" checklist but I can't remember what the letters stand for. I'm guessing that the "S" is for stress and the "E" is for emotional. Either of both of those would apply.

Exaclty what I was going to say and couldn't have said it better myself. Moxie I recall your post when you were flying to visit this friend. You were pretty upset then. While flying can sure clear our heads, something as emotional as a good friends funeral is a whole different story. Think about staying out of the cockpit for just a bit till you feel a little better.

woodstock
June 29th, 2005, 08:25 AM
if you bust bravo and no one tells you, what happens then? had he not said a word, you saw you were high, and went back down - no harm no foul?

Ron Levy
June 29th, 2005, 09:41 AM
if you bust bravo and no one tells you, what happens then? had he not said a word, you saw you were high, and went back down - no harm no foul?Absent a Pilot Deviation ("PD") report from the controller to the FSDO, there's nothing further.

gismo
June 29th, 2005, 10:15 AM
Absent a Pilot Deviation ("PD") report from the controller to the FSDO, there's nothing further.

But you're not off the hook just because no one mentioned it to you if someone does pursue it.

Rick
June 29th, 2005, 11:35 AM
But you're not off the hook just because no one mentioned it to you if someone does pursue it.

Agreed... But its pretty safe to say that if you are going to get in trouble with the controller, you're going to hear about it on the frequency.

Rick.

Unregistered
July 27th, 2011, 11:59 PM
I'm an inactive pilot. My last flight as a command pilot was before TCAs and the alphabet of airspace. So far Google and Bing ave not given me a clear answer to a question I have

Are Bravo and class B airspace the same thing? BWI local traffic control, BWI Tower, routinely clears helicopters into Bravo airspace, sometimes North of the airport, sometimes transitioning the airport. Coogle only references Class B Airspace when I pose a question or search. There is no mention of Bravo Airspace at all, which leads me to think that Bravo and Class B are the same -mhlansdell00@yahoo.com

COFlyBoy
July 28th, 2011, 12:08 AM
I'm an inactive pilot. My last flight as a command pilot was before TCAs and the alphabet of airspace. So far Google and Bing ave not given me a clear answer to a question I have

Are Bravo and class B airspace the same thing? BWI local traffic control, BWI Tower, routinely clears helicopters into Bravo airspace, sometimes North of the airport, sometimes transitioning the airport. Coogle only references Class B Airspace when I pose a question or search. There is no mention of Bravo Airspace at all, which leads me to think that Bravo and Class B are the same -mhlansdell00@yahoo.com

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICAO_spelling_alphabet

Ron Levy
July 28th, 2011, 11:25 AM
Are Bravo and class B airspace the same thing?Essentially, yes. As COFB hinted, controllers use the phonetic "Bravo" for "B" when discussing Class B airspace. Technically, they are supposed to say "Cleared into the Class Bravo airspace," but sometimes in the interest of brevity they just say "Cleared into the Bravo airspace" or even just "Cleared into the Bravo." Ditto their use of "Charlie airspace" or just "Charlie" when communicating with aircraft regarding the Class C airspace which replaced the Airport Radar Surveillance Areas (ARSA's) you probably remember.

pericynthion
July 29th, 2011, 05:36 AM
You don't have to be cleared into the Charlie, though - just have to establish 2-way communication. Which I think is why the approach controller at a certain moderately busy class C airport last month refused to acknowledge my calls for 10 minutes as I circled over the top of his field :mad:

Ron Levy
July 29th, 2011, 12:58 PM
You don't have to be cleared into the Charlie, though - just have to establish 2-way communication. Which I think is why the approach controller at a certain moderately busy class C airport last month refused to acknowledge my calls for 10 minutes as I circled over the top of his field :mad:More typically, when they don't want you in their C-space, they'll say "Aircraft calling approach, stand by;" and then call you back ("Aircraft calling approach, go ahead")when they have time to handle you. If they don't acknowledge at all, it's too likely you'll just keep calling and jamming the freq.