Plane breaks up mid air over Long Island

Indeed sad.... But that seems like a ton of speculation about cause.
 
This is horrifying for all involved. Very sad. Thoughts and condolences to all involved or touched by this.
 
Apparently a V35B.
Very sad.
RIP
 
Kritchlow said:
Indeed sad.... But that seems like a ton of speculation about cause.
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Sad situation indeed. Talked to someone that heard the radio transmissions:

Pilot was VFR on top and started losing instruments. Reports vacuum failure and declares an emergency but wants to continue to the destination in CT because the weather is better there. Plane enters IMC and pilot reports losing more instruments. Plane starts to wonder off course and ATC asks if there are issues, pilot says he's having difficultly flying, plane corrects but pilot expresses further concern about state of insturments in the cockpit. Radar then shows the plane decending and ATC issues low altitude alerts but no response recieved. Radar contact lost and shortly thereafter eyewitnesses report plane parts falling from the sky. Wreckage scattered around a 2 mile area indicating a breakup at an altitude that would have been IMC.
 
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rocketflyer84 said:
Talked to someone that heard the radio transmissions:

Pilot was VFR over the top and started losing instruments. Reports vacuum failure and declares an emergency but wants to continue to the destination in CT because the weather is better there. Plane enters IMC and pilot reports losing more instruments. Plane starts to wonder off course and ATC asks if there are issues, pilot says he's having difficultly flying, plane corrects but pilot expresses further concern about lack of instirments in the cockpit. Radar then shows the plane decending and ATC issues low altitude alerts but no response recieved. Radar contact lost and shortly thereafter eyewitnesses report plane parts falling from the sky. Wreckage scattered around a 2 mile area indicating a breakup at an altitude that would have been IMC.
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With all due respect, that is still at LEAST second hand info. In reality it could be a pilot with "the leans" who thinks his vacuum is gone.
Not saying you're wrong, just pointing out the need to wait for the report.
Regardless, it's a sad outcome.
 
Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.
Regardless, it still doesn't negate pilot error.
 
Kritchlow said:
Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.
Regardless, it still doesn't negate pilot error.
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Concur... simply said it was possible control was lost considering one moment you have a nervous pilot on partial panel in IMC saying they are having difficulty controlling flight and the next moment the plane breaks up mid air. Only the NTSB gets to say what probable cause was.
 
He sounds very professional... Something doesn't add up. He is flying just fine yet loses "more" of his panel?? I'm interested in this.
 
Suddenly the cost of Sandia 340 backup mini-EFIS becomes more attractive.
 
Ugh what do you do??
Sounded like he had a legit issue he identified while he was still VFR on top.

w/ 2+ hours of fuel why would he go IMC?

this makes me feel sick
 
zaitcev said:
Suddenly the cost of Sandia 340 backup mini-EFIS becomes more attractive.
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Huh??? Is this an ad?? A back up anything may have worked.
Why the fancy machine you recommend??
 
Kritchlow said:
He sounds very professional... Something doesn't add up. He is flying just fine yet loses "more" of his panel?? I'm interested in this.
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Seems like a common thread when people get disoriented...even the stuff that's working doesn't make sense, so more stuff must've failed.

I know of one instance where the airplane had a vacuum pump fail...AI & DG went toes up. The pilot claimed failures of his pitot/static instruments, and even his whiskey compass. An acquaintance of mine talked him down below the clouds & led him to a nearby airport, so it was actually verifiable that none of the additional stuff failed.

I've had guys complain that I gave unreasonable "cascading failures" in the sim. All I did was fail a static heat, and the result was a loss of control.

Too many of us aren't equipped for instrument malfunctions in IMC, and 80% of us think we're above average.
 
Kritchlow said:
With all due respect, that is still at LEAST second hand info. In reality it could be a pilot with "the leans" who thinks his vacuum is gone.
Not saying you're wrong, just pointing out the need to wait for the report.
Regardless, it's a sad outcome.
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Agree and sad, but I suspect spatial disorientation too. If he lost vacuum that certainly led to it. Just my opinion, no disrespect intended.
 
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Guy had 2 and a half hours in a Bo! He could've flown halfway to Florida! Why didn't they vector him to VFR conditions? He was obviously having trouble with the partial panel. There had do be some VFR conditions somewhere within range of a Bonanza.
 
Hartford was VFR, 10 miles and 16 overcast. Agree though ATC should have tried to find him a better airport, and perhaps they were looking. We don't know. When the NTSB report is published we'll know more.
 
steingar said:
Guy had 2 and a half hours in a Bo! He could've flown halfway to Florida! Why didn't they vector him to VFR conditions? He was obviously having trouble with the partial panel. There had do be some VFR conditions somewhere within range of a Bonanza.
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The whole northeast and midatlantic region was mostly socked in yesterday so not sure there was any VFR all the way to the ground anywhere around, but agree with 2 hours of fuel and what appears to have been a functioning airplane apart from insturments it is unclear why they didn't just stay up there longer above the clouds (pilot was in VFR conditions on top when the incident started).
 
mscard88 said:
Hartford was VFR, 10 miles and 16 overcast. Agree though ATC should have tried to find him a better airport, and perhaps they were looking. We don't know. When the NTSB report is published we'll know more.
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On the radio recordings ATC was looking around and said Hartford was probably the best in the area. Anywhere in the area the pilot was going to have some solid IMC time between being on top and being able to see the ground.
 
Pretty crappy weather all day yesterday from what I heard. Lots of low IFR.
 
Yes and I'm sure they looked at all the airports in their airspace. Someone mentioned that the NE had widespread low weather yesterday so perhaps nothing was better than Hartford. But maybe a call to FSS and/or NY Center would have resulted in an airport w/ better weather. Not saying ATC did not do this.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
The whole northeast and midatlantic region was mostly socked in yesterday so not sure there was any VFR all the way to the ground anywhere around...
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It was nice here and I bet we were within 2.5 hours of Bo time. Guy might've had to go out of his way, but at least he would have lived to ***** about it. I can't underestimate the utility of in-cockpit weather. Screw fooling with ATC, just find out where the good wx is and go.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Would've been nice to have had a BRS as well. It's use may have earned this pilot some scorn but he'd be alive to receive it.
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This is one of the exact reasons for having a BRS. Losing control and bearings in IMC. Pull the chute and float back to earth.
 
TexDeuce said:
This is one of the exact reasons for having a BRS. Losing control and bearings in IMC. Pull the chute and float back to earth.
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Would you automatically pull the chute if you lose the gyro VFR on top? Would you automatically pull if you are no gyro in IMC? Or do you wait to pull until you are disoriented? If the later, how do you ensure that you are within the permissible flight envelope for safe deployment? I have never had BRS training, so I ask these out of my own ignorance.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I know of one instance where the airplane had a vacuum pump fail...AI & DG went toes up. The pilot claimed failures of his pitot/static instruments, and even his whiskey compass. An acquaintance of mine talked him down below the clouds & led him to a nearby airport, so it was actually verifiable that none of the additional stuff failed.

I've had guys complain that I gave unreasonable "cascading failures" in the sim. All I did was fail a static heat, and the result was a loss of control.

Too many of us aren't equipped for instrument malfunctions in IMC, and 80% of us think we're above average.
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Not surprising. I've seen several instrument-rated pilots who could barely keep the aircraft under control even with all instruments working.
 
TexDeuce said:
This is one of the exact reasons for having a BRS. Losing control and bearings in IMC. Pull the chute and float back to earth.
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BRS probably will not work if you are in a graveyard spiral approaching or exceeding Vne. I think the deployment parameters are 1000' and under 130kts? Sure it will probably still work at 150 or 160 knots but don't count on it bailing you out of a loss of control in IMC
 
TexDeuce said:
This is one of the exact reasons for having a BRS. Losing control and bearings in IMC. Pull the chute and float back to earth.
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The plane was absolutely ripped to shreds so whatever happened up there the airframe was subjected to enormous stress. In such a situation pulling a chute might only make it much worse as that exerts enormous stress and would literally rip the plane apart. If one gets into such a really bad unusual attitude at high speed the only thing that can save the situation is a gradual correction with the right moves to avoid over stressing the airframe. In that scenario the chute would have to be pulled well before things went south.
 
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Obviously if you wait to pull the chute in a high velocity death spiral overstressing the plane it isn't a great option. Pulling it at the first sigh of trouble is when you need to pull it. Hard to speculate when the pilot knew he was in major trouble and how good of a pilot he was. Plenty of people that lost it in IMC would have been helped by a chute I have no doubt.
 
PPC1052 said:
Would you automatically pull the chute if you lose the gyro VFR on top? Would you automatically pull if you are no gyro in IMC? Or do you wait to pull until you are disoriented? If the later, how do you ensure that you are within the permissible flight envelope for safe deployment? I have never had BRS training, so I ask these out of my own ignorance.
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Nah, you don't automatically pull. You take careful consideration to your situation.
Low to the ground, you have made a plan of what to do below 500 feet, above 500 feet.
You stick to this plan. You made it when you didn't have an emergency clouding your thinking.

I don't know what equipment his pilot had.
If I were having issues on top, I would determine if I could get to VFR.
If I had to go through a layer, I would let the A/P do it (I am not IR).

If I had no A/P, lost portions of my panel, and had to go IMC, given my current skill set, I would pull (before losing control) and enjoy living to read the Macho posts about how a set of tundra tires was all a real pilot needs in that situation :)
 
As far as chute parameters, I think Cirrus has changed things a bit.
@FastEddieB or @RudyP can correct me if I am wrong.

The parameters are <133kts and above 500 or 1000 feet depending on model.
But I believe Cirrus is now saying "Those are the parameters but if you are out of options, pull"
I believe the chute has been successfully deployed > 170kts and as low as 300 feet. It is not within parameters but there are people that survived outside the parameters.

If memory serves, I got this information from a video put out by Cirrus a few months ago.
 
You can definitely hear his stress level increase as the transmissions went on. I can't imagine what it was like on board the airplane for the last few minutes.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
The plane was absolutely ripped to shreds so whatever happened up there the airframe was subjected to enormous stress. In such a situation pulling a chute might only make it much worse as that exerts enormous stress and would literally rip the plane apart. If one gets into such a really bad unusual attitude at high speed the only thing that can save the situation is a gradual correction with the right moves to avoid over stressing the airframe. In that scenario the chute would have to be pulled well before things went south.
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It didn't start out ripped to shreds. That happened, in IMC, well down the chain of events. With a BRS, if you no longer have the proper equipment to fly IMC and you are getting disoriented, then pull the chute before you enter a spin or whatever else happened here.

People on POA will laugh at you, but you'll live to fly another day.
 
Sad to hear about this. Aluminum showers are never good.
Sounds almost like some get-there-itis at work. Instead of biting the bullet and flying back/toward VMC they stayed where there was heavy OVC with failing panel.
How stable was the air mass. I was up in some very gusty stuff a few weeks ago and shooting an approach under foggles was 'sporty' with full panel. partial would have been bad. If it was a little bumpy that can throw you off when PP as well, if you arent sharp.

Reminder to stay sharp on PP, and not only know where VMC, higher ceilings are, but be willing to take the time and $$$ to go there.
 
Ok BRS haters let me introduce you to another well thought out Cirrus piece of safety equipment - on the Red Board i saw it referred to as the "I'm all F-ed up level the wings button". Think of it as the instrument pilots version of control/alt/delete.
Certainly would have made a difference.
 

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Art VanDelay said:
Ok BRS haters let me introduce you to another well thought out Cirrus piece of safety equipment - on the Red Board i saw it referred to as the "I'm all F-ed up level the wings button". Think of it as the instrument pilots version of control/alt/delete.
Certainly would have made a difference.
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Autopilot is really your friend in this situation.
 
Bonchie said:
It didn't start out ripped to shreds. That happened, in IMC, well down the chain of events. With a BRS, if you no longer have the proper equipment to fly IMC and you are getting disoriented, then pull the chute before you enter a spin or whatever else happened here.

People on POA will laugh at you, but you'll live to fly another day.
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Theres also the big assumption that the pilot recognizes they are disorientated to begin with. For all we know he thought he was straight and level and recovering nicely.
 
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