Multiple Recent ATC Errors...Why?

[3393RP]

I didn't say there was no data regarding issues. You missed the statement "In most cases there is accurate information to be had, one just has to look for it." Bias exists everywhere. Evaluating sources instead of nodding one's head and agreeing is required. In this case, using a survey conducted almost a decade ago to make your point was rather useless.

In the larger picture, this is an internet forum, and that means opinions are a given. There's always the TLDR discard option if you don't want to read more than two sentences.

 

[AKiss20]

You missed the statement "In most cases there is accurate information to be had, one just has to look for it."

So you are basing your opinion on data? What data?

You are hung up on inconsequential details about an example which was merely supposed to be demonstrative. Whether or not perceptions right now mirror reality doesn't invalidate that at the time of that study they did not. The point I was making is that there are examples where the perceptions of the trend in the rate of something occurring are actually opposite of the true trend. I wasn't particularly arguing that it was a universal truth or the details of the example.

By the way, since you insist on arguing the details, that mis-match in perceptions continues to exist. While we had a bump in the crime rate in 2020 and 2021, that bump has rapidly decayed, yet the vast majority of people in 2023 believed crime rates were still increasing, and within the margin of error, the same amount as in 2020 when crime rates actually were increasing.

Most people think the U.S. crime rate is rising. They're wrong.

Almost 80 percent of Americans, and 92 percent of Republicans, think crime has gone up. It actually fell in 2023. An expert blames a familiar culprit for the mistaken impression.

www.nbcnews.com

Crime in 2023: Murder Plummeted, Violent and Property Crime Likely Fell Nationally

These trends stand in sharp contrast with polling showing 3 in 4 Americans think crime rose this year.

jasher.substack.com

More Americans See U.S. Crime Problem as Serious

A new high of 63% of U.S. adults say the crime problem in the U.S. is extremely or very serious.

news.gallup.com

Can we please move on from this now? Is there any actual, reliable data on ATC error rates?

 

[Kritchlow]

Listen up… if the crew is in tune to the big picture, that does help. Paying attention and sterile cockpit. It can, and does, avoid tragedy.

 

[Velocity173]

So you are basing your opinion on data? What data?

You are hung up on inconsequential details about an example which was merely supposed to be demonstrative. Whether or not perceptions right now mirror reality doesn't invalidate that at the time of that study they did not. The point I was making is that there are examples where the perceptions of the trend in the rate of something occurring are actually opposite of the true trend. I wasn't particularly arguing that it was a universal truth or the details of the example.

By the way, since you insist on arguing the details, that mis-match in perceptions continues to exist. While we had a bump in the crime rate in 2020 and 2021, that bump has rapidly decayed, yet the vast majority of people in 2023 believed crime rates were still increasing, and within the margin of error, the same amount as in 2020 when crime rates actually were increasing.

Most people think the U.S. crime rate is rising. They're wrong.

Almost 80 percent of Americans, and 92 percent of Republicans, think crime has gone up. It actually fell in 2023. An expert blames a familiar culprit for the mistaken impression.

www.nbcnews.com

Crime in 2023: Murder Plummeted, Violent and Property Crime Likely Fell Nationally

These trends stand in sharp contrast with polling showing 3 in 4 Americans think crime rose this year.

jasher.substack.com

More Americans See U.S. Crime Problem as Serious

A new high of 63% of U.S. adults say the crime problem in the U.S. is extremely or very serious.

news.gallup.com

Can we please move on from this now? Is there any actual, reliable data on ATC error rates?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2023/11/09/near-miss-airport-airplanes/

Low staffing, more close calls: FAA responds to increased scrutiny on aviation safety

The Federal Aviation Administration insists flying is still extremely safe and improvements are being made even as near miss numbers rise.

www.usatoday.com

Is DEI risking air traffic control safety?

Several stories and tweets went viral this week calling into question the competency of airline pilots over DEI concerns. Critics such as Elon Musk have pointed to diversity hiring initiatives for airline pilots, assuming that standards are lowered for underrepresented groups, but federal...

unherd.com

 

[3393RP]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2023/11/09/near-miss-airport-airplanes/

Low staffing, more close calls: FAA responds to increased scrutiny on aviation safety

The Federal Aviation Administration insists flying is still extremely safe and improvements are being made even as near miss numbers rise.

www.usatoday.com

Is DEI risking air traffic control safety?

Several stories and tweets went viral this week calling into question the competency of airline pilots over DEI concerns. Critics such as Elon Musk have pointed to diversity hiring initiatives for airline pilots, assuming that standards are lowered for underrepresented groups, but federal...

unherd.com

This is just a bit unsettling.



From the links above:

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) blames the problem on the six-month closure of its academy in 2020 and a two-year pause in on-the-job trainings. But the crisis appears to have emerged about a decade into an Obama-era push to diversify the industry.

Under the Obama administration, the FAA scrapped its hiring process based on aptitude test scores and training in 2013 and replaced it with one that considered applicants’ biographies, resulting in an ongoing class action lawsuit on behalf of about 1,000 applicants who were passed over under the new regime. The biographical component gave an advantage to applicants who had been unemployed for the past three years, among other traits the FAA believed would result in more opportunities for racial diversity.

Hiring someone that can't hold a job to make life and death decisions every day sounds like a ridiculous parody, but it's real.

 

[Baked Potato]

This is just a bit unsettling.



From the links above:

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) blames the problem on the six-month closure of its academy in 2020 and a two-year pause in on-the-job trainings. But the crisis appears to have emerged about a decade into an Obama-era push to diversify the industry.

Under the Obama administration, the FAA scrapped its hiring process based on aptitude test scores and training in 2013 and replaced it with one that considered applicants’ biographies, resulting in an ongoing class action lawsuit on behalf of about 1,000 applicants who were passed over under the new regime. The biographical component gave an advantage to applicants who had been unemployed for the past three years, among other traits the FAA believed would result in more opportunities for racial diversity.

Hiring someone that can't hold a job to make life and death decisions every day sounds like a ridiculous parody, but it's real.

Are there any confirmations of the above that aren't from unabashed conservative news sites?

 

[Velocity173]

This is just a bit unsettling.



From the links above:

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) blames the problem on the six-month closure of its academy in 2020 and a two-year pause in on-the-job trainings. But the crisis appears to have emerged about a decade into an Obama-era push to diversify the industry.

Under the Obama administration, the FAA scrapped its hiring process based on aptitude test scores and training in 2013 and replaced it with one that considered applicants’ biographies, resulting in an ongoing class action lawsuit on behalf of about 1,000 applicants who were passed over under the new regime. The biographical component gave an advantage to applicants who had been unemployed for the past three years, among other traits the FAA believed would result in more opportunities for racial diversity.

Hiring someone that can't hold a job to make life and death decisions every day sounds like a ridiculous parody, but it's real.

I’m not buying the under staffed excuse either. ATC has almost always been understaffed since the 1981 firings. In 2008 the FAA had around 11,000 controllers with a traffic load equal to or even greater than that today. Today you have around 14,000 controllers with far better tech than was available in 2008. But yet operational errors are on the rise.

It’s the quality of people plain and simple. My brother just texted me the other day. He worked with controllers that had no interest in aviation. They did everything possible to get out of working heavy traffic. Abused sick leave took excessively long lunch breaks, never studied. He used to have to tell them to put their phones up on position because they were more concerned about starring at their phones vs working traffic. Just an overall lazy work ethic.

That ATL Twr guy I mentioned earlier that I met at the gas station. He said the last straw for him was working in tower one night and they were split east / west local control. Had a young female controller working local and she was texting her friend while working traffic. He told her to “put your **** phone up!” She reported him to management and he got in trouble. Was told “he needed to mentor these young controllers.” That was it for him.

 

[Velocity173]

Are there any confirmations of the above that aren't from unabashed conservative news sites?

Oh the FAA changed in hiring practices back in 2013. That’s a fact.

FAA’s changes to traffic controller hiring ‘puts the safety of our skies at risk’ - Mind Your Business

The Federal Aviation Administration has been under investigation over the past six months after it made changes to its hiring policies in order to promote diversity in its air traffic controller hiring. Many are now concerned that the changes in the requirements for air traffic controllers are...

mybinc.com

And it resulted in this.

The FAA Is Being Sued For Throwing Out Air Traffic Controller Applications Based On Applicants' Race

The class action lawsuit represents over 1,000 people.

simpleflying.com

 

[Baked Potato]

Oh the FAA changed in hiring practices back in 2013. That’s a fact.

FAA’s changes to traffic controller hiring ‘puts the safety of our skies at risk’ - Mind Your Business

The Federal Aviation Administration has been under investigation over the past six months after it made changes to its hiring policies in order to promote diversity in its air traffic controller hiring. Many are now concerned that the changes in the requirements for air traffic controllers are...

mybinc.com

And it resulted in this.

The FAA Is Being Sued For Throwing Out Air Traffic Controller Applications Based On Applicants' Race

The class action lawsuit represents over 1,000 people.

simpleflying.com

I don't disagree that they changed their hiring practices. I posted a screenshot of the questionnaire topics earlier in this thread.

But I see a lot of hyperbole posted by conservative sites (including your bolded portion) that I haven't been able to confirm otherwise.

Your first link above is a blog post.

 

[Velocity173]

I don't disagree that they changed their hiring practices. I posted a screenshot of the questionnaire topics earlier in this thread.

But I see a lot of hyperbole posted by conservative sites (including your bolded portion) that I haven't been able to confirm otherwise.

Your first link above is a blog post.

Well that’s the crux of what some are getting at. The change in hiring practices resulting in lower quality of students and an end result in increase in operational errors.

Obviously the CTI grads and many of my veteran ATC friends see a problem in that sort of practice. Whether or not it’s decreasing safety in the NAS, who knows?

 

[bbchien]

As with all aspects of the agency, we are asking too much of too few for too long.

 

[Baked Potato]

Well that’s the crux of what some are getting at. The change in hiring practices resulting in lower quality of students and an end result in increase in operational errors.

Obviously the CTI grads and many of my veteran ATC friends see a problem in that sort of practice. Whether or not it’s decreasing safety in the NAS, who knows?

Sure - who wouldn't see that a lower quality of student and an increase in operational errors is a problem? That's something that we, as aviators, all care deeply about.

What I've questioned, in this thread, are statements such as that the new practices were "designed to screen out candidates who weren't members of a preferred minority racial group", or to a lesser extent that they "gave an advantage to applicants who had been unemployed for the past three years" - especially for roles that directly affected public safety and not for applicants for mail room positions, for example (remember that the FAA is a very large organization).

In this thread I have not said that the above quotes are false. But I do have to say that they ping my BS meter pretty hard, and before forming my opinion on the matter I'd like sources other than:

a) quoting a plaintiff's complaint as fact, which is a big no-no​

b) websites where the article in question shares front page real estate with other articles such as "The liberal world order is collapsing once again" and "Would you date a Right-wing man?"​

I think these requests are reasonable, no? People are linking DEI hiring practices with a perceived decline in aviation safety, and I am just asking for people to be more cognizant about the veracity of their sources when posting. But perhaps we have to wait for the facts of the lawsuit to become public.

 

[Palmpilot]

Unless I've missed it, I still haven't seen an answer to my question as to whether the FAA has a surplus of applicants for controller training slots, because I don't see how DEI could be causing better-qualified applicants to be turned away unless such a surplus existed.

 

[dmspilot]

Unless I've missed it, I still haven't seen an answer to my question as to whether the FAA has a surplus of applicants for controller training slots, because I don't see how DEI could be causing better-qualified applicants to be turned away unless such a surplus existed.

FAA gets more than 57,000 applicants for air traffic control jobs

The agency says it has received 57,956 applications for this year's 1,500 open air traffic controller positions, but some critics say the agency isn't hiring fast enough.

abcnews.go.com

57,000 applicants for 1,500 jobs

 

[Bob Noel]

I think these requests are reasonable, no? People are linking DEI hiring practices with a perceived decline in aviation safety, and I am just asking for people to be more cognizant about the veracity of their sources when posting. But perhaps we have to wait for the facts of the lawsuit to become public.

a couple of thoughts:

If you are expecting sources like CNN, MSNBC, AP, and such to report on this, don't hold your breath.

Don't forget that "facts of the lawsuit" becoming public may not include all the facts of the specific lawsuit, nevermind the whole issue. At least some of the facts might not be admissible.

Having said that, I agree that it would be, ahem, nice to have unbiased sources.

 

[Bell206]

before forming my opinion on the matter I'd like sources other than

As I mentioned in earlier posts there are plenty of supporting documentation. Since it appears you prefer not to research those documents, here’s one example below to get you started. There are many more “authoritative” examples to include the lawsuit court filings, if you choose to look.

Regardless, the FAA dropped the CTI skills-based hiring program—which was open to anyone—in favor of a more biographical based hiring program. It failed. And since then, it has caused a huge strain on the ATC controller system that required the OIG and congress to get involved to try and fix it. And here we are today.

Ironically, two of the three lead plaintiffs on the ongoing reverse discrimination lawsuit against the FAA and DOT are a woman and a Native American, who belong to the same “protected class” the FAA was trying to help initially. I hope the 1000+ plaintiffs prevail in this case.

FAA report that led to the change in the ATC hiring process:
https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/f...rters_offices/acr/Barrier_Analysis_Report.pdf

 

[Piperonca]

True dat. He disgorges acronyms that are undecipherable. It's quite impressive.

Concatenates the damn things, too!

 

[Hengelo]

All this ATC talk has me wondering; is there a way to tell from a sectional which towers are "contracted" vs run by the FAA? I've been lucky enough never to have deal with "privateer" towers but I figure it's just a matter of time.

 

[Half Fast]

I've been lucky enough never to have deal with "privateer" towers

How would you know? There's a contract tower nearby that I've used several times, and everything works just the same as any other tower I've used.

 

[Velocity173]

All this ATC talk has me wondering; is there a way to tell from a sectional which towers are "contracted" vs run by the FAA? I've been lucky enough never to have deal with "privateer" towers but I figure it's just a matter of time.

No way on a sectional. Some contract towers have very experienced controllers that used to be in the FAA. A lot of them either aged out of the FAA (56 yrs) or they are just looking for a more laid back tower gig.

 

[ateamer]

Contract tower map.

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/FCT_Map.pdf

 

[PPC1052]

I’m not buying the under staffed excuse either. ATC has almost always been understaffed since the 1981 firings. In 2008 the FAA had around 11,000 controllers with a traffic load equal to or even greater than that today. Today you have around 14,000 controllers with far better tech than was available in 2008. But yet operational errors are on the rise.

It’s the quality of people plain and simple. My brother just texted me the other day. He worked with controllers that had no interest in aviation. They did everything possible to get out of working heavy traffic. Abused sick leave took excessively long lunch breaks, never studied. He used to have to tell them to put their phones up on position because they were more concerned about starring at their phones vs working traffic. Just an overall lazy work ethic.

That ATL Twr guy I mentioned earlier that I met at the gas station. He said the last straw for him was working in tower one night and they were split east / west local control. Had a young female controller working local and she was texting her friend while working traffic. He told her to “put your **** phone up!” She reported him to management and he got in trouble. Was told “he needed to mentor these young controllers.” That was it for him.

Sir, I am sorry, but your decades long career and on the job experience, your intimate insider knowledge of the system, and all of your personal contacts in the system are all simply unreliable anecdotal evidence that cannot be relied on. We need to see a peer review study in a non-conservative scientific publication that has an editorial board that has no interest in permitting anything that cuts against the liberal talking points before we can accept your common-sense analysis on this internet message board. Thank you for your understanding.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

Sir, I am sorry, but your decades long career and on the job experience, your intimate insider knowledge of the system, and all of your personal contacts in the system are all simply unreliable anecdotal evidence that cannot be relied on. We need to see a peer review study in a non-conservative scientific publication that has an editorial board that has no interest in permitting anything that cuts against the liberal talking points before we can accept your common-sense analysis on this internet message board. Thank you for your understanding.

Do you have reason to believe that ATC controllers are better than in the past (or at least as good) or that the general perception as expressed in this thread (that the quality of controllers has fallen) is false?

 

[PPC1052]

Do you have reason to believe that ATC controllers are better than in the past (or at least as good) or that the general perception as expressed in this thread (that the quality of controllers has fallen) is false?

I personally have no basis to draw any conclusions one way or the other, and I have done zero research. I just think it's ridiculous to discount Velocity's very well-educated assessment because he hasn't cited a peer-reviewed paper acceptable to his critics. My experience having read Velocity's posts on this board for years leads me to think he knows exactly what he is talking about.

 

[Half Fast]

My experience having read Velocity's posts on this board for years leads me to think he knows exactly what he is talking about.

Yep, I agree. He’s probably a bot.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

I personally have no basis to draw any conclusions one way or the other, and I have done zero research. I just think it's ridiculous to discount Velocity's very well-educated assessment because he hasn't cited a peer-reviewed paper acceptable to his critics. My experience having read Velocity's posts on this board for years leads me to think he knows exactly what he is talking about.

My apologies. I think I mis-read (mis-understood?) your post to which I replied. lol

 

[2-Bit Speed]

Yep, I agree. He’s probably a bot.

Russian, Chinese, Ukrainian, Danish, or Polish?

 

[PPC1052]

Yep, I agree. He’s probably a bot.

If you were a bot, would your creators tell you?

 

[PPC1052]

My apologies. I think I mis-read (mis-understood?) your post to which I replied. lol

What!??!?! This is the INTERNET! We have certain standards to uphold here.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

What!??!?! This is the INTERNET! We have certain standards to uphold here.

You're right. We must continue to disagree and insult each other for posterity.

 

[Half Fast]

Russian, Chinese, Ukrainian, Danish, or Polish?

Conch Republic.