Losing my LOM/Finding my FAF

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PPC1052

Final Approach
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So, here is the approach plate for the LOC 21 for KEYE:

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/EYE/IAP/LOC+RWY+21/pdf

The note says ADF or Radar required. The LOM is notam-ed out of service and I gather is going to be permanently decommissioned. Any guesses what the FAA is going to do to identify the final approach fix? Will this just go to radar required? I have a hard enough time getting ATC to call it for me if I specifically ask them to do so.
 
PPC1052 said:
The note says ADF or Radar required. The LOM is notam-ed out of service and I gather is going to be permanently decommissioned. Any guesses what the FAA is going to do to identify the final approach fix? Will this just go to radar required? I have a hard enough time getting ATC to call it for me if I specifically ask them to do so.
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Wouldn't you just use the MB? Or is that going away too? Vectors to final, cleared for the approach is what you'll get. Lost comms is problematic without an NDB.. so, rely on GPS?

dtuuri
 
PPC1052 said:
The note says ADF or Radar required. The LOM is notam-ed out of service and I gather is going to be permanently decommissioned. Any guesses what the FAA is going to do to identify the final approach fix? Will this just go to radar required? I have a hard enough time getting ATC to call it for me if I specifically ask them to do so.
Click to expand...

Here is the NOTAM:
10/001 - NAV ILS RWY 21 AIRPA LOM DECOMMISSIONED. 02 OCT 11:23 2015 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 02 OCT 11:25 2015
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The LOM has already been permanently decommissioned. An LOM is a Compass Locator, an NDB, installed at the site of the Outer Marker. The NDB is out so the only means of procedure entry now is radar vectors but the Outer Marker still marks the FAF.

Seems odd that the NOTAM says ILS RWY 21.
 
Brickyard VOR 041R/8.9DME one way. Have approach call it for you (if they remember:))
 
mscard88 said:
Brickyard VOR 041R/8.9DME one way. Have approach call it for you (if they remember:))
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Unfortunately, the LOM is not an intersetion. If it were, the chart wouldn't require ADF. When they drop NDBs like this they really ought to provide for lost comms by adding an intersection.

dtuuri
 
Well, substituting a GPS is an option. Several approaches in my area are NOTAMed as GPS required because a critical navaid is OTS.
 
roncachamp said:
Here is the NOTAM:
The LOM has already been permanently decommissioned. An LOM is a Compass Locator, an NDB, installed at the site of the Outer Marker. The NDB is out so the only means of procedure entry now is radar vectors but the Outer Marker still marks the FAF.

Seems odd that the NOTAM says ILS RWY 21.
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It is odd. There is no ILS. The marker beacon is out of service. So when do you start timing?

Edit: seems more likely this is just a type-o, but maybe they plan to add an ILS?
 
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mscard88 said:
Brickyard VOR 041R/8.9DME one way. Have approach call it for you (if they remember:))
Click to expand...

I suppose. But there is no DME equipment for the LOC. If there were, it wouldn't have required the NDB to begin with.
 
roncachamp said:
but the Outer Marker still marks the FAF.
Click to expand...
I need to look at this a little closer. My audio panel has never identified the outer marker at this location. Isn't the fact that LOM is decommissioned indicative of the fact the marker beacon won't function? Where can I find more information that explains this further?
 
Brickyard VOR 041R/8.9DME one way.
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I wonder why no fix using Shelbyville GEZ. It is at a much better angle and not that far away.
(ps those are some impressive 1000' towers close to the approach path!)
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I wonder why no fix using Shelbyville GEZ. It is at a much better angle and not that far away.
(ps those are some impressive 1000' towers close to the approach path!)
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Yep. They are tv broadcast towers. That's why there is a ODP for a 21 departure.
 
It seems to me that unless they're going to decommission the approach, they're going to need to come out with a revised approach plate that has a different means of identifying the IAF/FAF.
 
mscard88 said:
Brickyard VOR 041R/8.9DME one way. Have approach call it for you (if they remember:))
Click to expand...

I don't understand. Are you saying the Brickyard VOR 041R/8.9DME is one way to determine the FAF? If that's the case why would approach be needed to call it?

The Brickyard R-041 and localizer cannot form an intersection, the angle of intersection is too acute. Brickyard could possibly be used to establish a DME fix at AIRPA but without doing the arithmetic I can't be certain. There's no need to do so as the OM is still functioning.
 
MAKG1 said:
Well, substituting a GPS is an option. Several approaches in my area are NOTAMed as GPS required because a critical navaid is OTS.
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Yes but those are temporary, this NDB is gone forever. If you have GPS you might as well do the RNAV RWY 21 approach.

ADF was used for procedure entry on this approach. With the NDB gone radar is the only means for procedure entry. The feeder route via Brickyard will be removed.
 
PPC1052 said:
It is odd. There is no ILS. The marker beacon is out of service. So when do you start timing?
Click to expand...

What indicates the marker beacon is out of service? The NOTAM refers only to the NDB, which has been decommissioned.
 
PPC1052 said:
My audio panel has never identified the outer marker at this location.
Click to expand...
Are you set to "Lo" sensitivity? Some MB antennas aren't up to snuff on "Lo", so try "Hi". Ask a corporate crew based there how their MBs work.

PPC1052 said:
Isn't the fact that LOM is decommissioned indicative of the fact the marker beacon won't function?
Click to expand...
Not at all.

PPC1052 said:
Where can I find more information that explains this further?
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Besides the AIM, try Order 6450.24e EDIT: 6750.24e.

dtuuri
 
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PPC1052 said:
I need to look at this a little closer. My audio panel has never identified the outer marker at this location. Isn't the fact that LOM is decommissioned indicative of the fact the marker beacon won't function? Where can I find more information that explains this further?
Click to expand...

If you fly this approach and never get the audio and light indicating passage of the marker beacon it means your marker beacon receiver is not functioning or the marker beacon is not transmitting. Or possibly both.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I wonder why no fix using Shelbyville GEZ. It is at a much better angle and not that far away.
(ps those are some impressive 1000' towers close to the approach path!)
Click to expand...

I make it 26 NM from SHB to AIRPA. From the A/FD:
(L) VORTAC112.0 SHB Chan 57 N39º37.95 ́ W85º49.46 ́ 162º 3.1 NM to fld. 805/1E.
VOR unusable:
Byd 25 NM blo 3,000 ́
180º–270º byd 17 NM blo 6,000 ́
Click to expand...
 
Palmpilot said:
It seems to me that unless they're going to decommission the approach, they're going to need to come out with a revised approach plate that has a different means of identifying the IAF/FAF.
Click to expand...

The FAF is identified by the marker beacon, procedure entry is via radar vectors.
 
roncachamp said:
The FAF is identified by the marker beacon, procedure entry is via radar vectors.
Click to expand...

Will it still be possible to navigate to the IAF, or will they need to remove it, and the procedure turn, from the approach plate?
 
Palmpilot said:
Will it still be possible to navigate to the IAF, or will they need to remove it, and the procedure turn, from the approach plate?
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No, the NDB, feeder route, and procedure turn will be removed from the plate.

Another oddity here is there's no NOTAM for the NDB RWY 21 approach. The NOTAM, IAPs, and A/FD refer to AIRPA NDB, but there's no AIRPA NDB available on the NAVAID datasheet site. There it's shown as EYE NDB.
 
roncachamp said:
Another oddity here is there's no NOTAM for the NDB RWY 21 approach. The NOTAM, IAPs, and A/FD refer to AIRPA NDB, but there's no AIRPA NDB available on the NAVAID datasheet site. There it's shown as EYE NDB.
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Hmmm... :idea: Could it be the OM is the only thing OTS and they mislabeled the NOTAM for the LOM instead?

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
Hmmm... :idea: Could it be the OM is the only thing OTS and they mislabeled the NOTAM for the LOM instead?
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That is certainly a possibility. I just sent an email to the FAA folks who handle NOTAMs.
 
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dtuuri said:
Are you set to "Lo" sensitivity? Some MB antennas aren't up to snuff on "Lo", so try "Hi". Ask a corporate crew based there how their MBs work.


Not at all.


Besides the AIM, try Order 6450.24e EDIT: 6750.24e.

dtuuri
Click to expand...

Thank you. I'll look into these points.
 
dtuuri said:
Hmmm... :idea: Could it be the OM is the only thing OTS and they mislabeled the NOTAM for the LOM instead?

dtuuri
Click to expand...

It might be mislabeled to not include the outer maker, but the NDB doesn't function, either.
 
roncachamp said:
What indicates the marker beacon is out of service? The NOTAM refers only to the NDB, which has been decommissioned.
Click to expand...

The only think I know is that the NOTAM refers to the "LOM." What I don't know is whether that terminology in the NOTAM is referring to the NDB portion, or the outer marker portion, or both. I had assumed both. But I am trying to educate myself on this issue.

Again, thanks for your posts. They are helpful.
 
Alas the FAA isn't too consistent in it's use of LOM. The AIM implies it only encompasses the compass locator (the NDB). In other places, they take it to include both the NDB and the marker beacon itself.

Frankly, if something happened that knocked out the NDB it stands a good chance it affected the marker beacon as well.
 
flyingron said:
Alas the FAA isn't too consistent in it's use of LOM. The AIM implies it only encompasses the compass locator (the NDB). In other places, they take it to include both the NDB and the marker beacon itself.
Click to expand...

Also deficient in its understanding, from the A/FD:
AIRPA NDB (LOM)209 EY N39º55.52 ́ W86º14.28 ́
207º 6.2 NM to fld. LOC and LOM unmonitored. OM unusable 270º–290º byd 5 NM. NDB unusable 270º–320º 321º–269º byd 10 NM.
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If the Outer Marker could be received up to 5 NM away in any direction it would indicate something very wrong with it. Both of these deficiencies must apply to the NDB.

Frankly, if something happened that knocked out the NDB it stands a good chance it affected the marker beacon as well.
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Like a tornado? KATW lost a BCM to a tornado, must be close to thirty years ago now. I don't think it was ever found.

Could be it was decided to decommission it simply because it wasn't very useful. Given the restrictions and being in a full-time approach control it was probably rarely used.
 
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dtuuri said:
Are you set to "Lo" sensitivity? Some MB antennas aren't up to snuff on "Lo", so try "Hi".
Click to expand...

I just flew this last night. After reviewing my POH, I determined that I was set to Lo sensitivity. I'll try Hi next time and will see if I get anything.
 
Just for giggles, I tried mine out yesterday. G1000, ILS approach into Livermore. It worked fine, though it's kinda pointless with a GPS.
 
I don't understand the question. The Marker is the Brickyard 041 Radial. When that is reached start the clock and descend to 1320. When the time is up, if you can't see the runway go direct brickyard. Radar is required because there isn't an IAF accessible from the airway (brick is not a IAF). Direct to the ADF or Radar Vectors is the only published way to get to the IAF, Brick to Airpa is NOT a feeder route.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
I don't understand the question. The Marker is the Brickyard 041 Radial. When that is reached start the clock and descend to 1320. When the time is up, if you can't see the runway go direct brickyard. Radar is required because there isn't an IAF accessible from the airway (brick is not a IAF). Direct to the ADF or Radar Vectors is the only published way to get to the IAF, Brick to Airpa is NOT a feeder route.
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As mentioned in post #16, the angle of that radial to the approach course is too acute to be used to define the fix location. The reason is that a small error in the angle causes a relatively large error in position along the approach course.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
I don't understand the question. The Marker is the Brickyard 041 Radial. When that is reached start the clock and descend to 1320. When the time is up, if you can't see the runway go direct brickyard.
Click to expand...

No, the marker is a beacon at AIRPA. The VHP R-041 and localizer do not form an intersection.

Radar is required because there isn't an IAF accessible from the airway (brick is not a IAF). Direct to the ADF or Radar Vectors is the only published way to get to the IAF, Brick to Airpa is NOT a feeder route.
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Yes it is, if it was not a feeder route it would not show an altitude and distance to be flown.
 
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