Helo with Iranian President hits side of mountain

kyleb said:
Yeah, but when helo 1 doesn't check in for 30 seconds, did he have a com failure? Did Allah summon him? Do you do a 360 in the clag to look for him?
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I'm not happy about the death of anyone even though it's reported that this was a horribly evil human being. Having said that, if he went into the side of a mountain in the fog ... sorry about that mate, I hate it for ya. I just figured they would have a better guess as to where they lost him ...
 
Daleandee said:
I'm not happy about the death of anyone even though it's reported that this was a horribly evil human being. Having said that, if he went into the side of a mountain in the fog ... sorry about that mate, I hate it for ya. I just figured they would have a better guess as to where they lost him ...
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I bet they had it narrowed down pretty quickly to a couple of square miles, but in the fog and (at some point) fading daylight, pinpointing him well enough to send a rescue helo might not have been in the cards over the short term.
 
If the aircraft went IIMC and the other 2 didn’t, how would they know his exact location? Could be miles away by the time they crashed. If all 3 went IIMC then they’d be scattered to the winds and none of them would know each others position. They’re in the mountains, probably not flying very tight and could easily lose sight of one another.

Looks like Iranian pilots up front. A COL and a MAJ.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Factual Determination of Cause:
News article today quotes high-ranking Iranian official as blaming the US for this accident. (I do not joke)
Something about it’s our fault because we have denied them access to better equipment with the embargo.
(nothing to do with choosing to fly in horrible weather)
I’ll try to find it.

www.yahoo.com

Iran blames Western sanctions for fatal crash of US helicopter carrying Ebrahim Raisi

Mohammad Javad Zarif, Iran’s former foreign minister, has blamed US sanctions on aviation parts for the helicopter crash that killed the Islamic Republic’s president.
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com
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That crew over there is really adept at making everything they do the fault of someone else. Never their choice.
 
Stupid question. Were they flying low to avoid anti-air threats in their own airspace? Not sure why one wouldn't just cruise above most weather when a VIP is onboard.

I wouldn't expect a head of state's aircraft to be VFR only.
 
Pi1otguy said:
Stupid question. Were they flying low to avoid anti-air threats in their own airspace? Not sure why one wouldn't just cruise above most weather when a VIP is onboard.

I wouldn't expect a head of state's aircraft to be VFR only.
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IFR in helicopters is apparently a rare and specialized skill set.
 
Pi1otguy said:
Stupid question. Were they flying low to avoid anti-air threats in their own airspace? Not sure why one wouldn't just cruise above most weather when a VIP is onboard.

I wouldn't expect a head of state's aircraft to be VFR only.
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I seriously doubt they were trying to avoid MANPADS from their own people. I know they had a rebellion back in the 60s but I don’t think the Kurds are causing problems inside Iran today.

I’m sure they were trying to stay low enough so the President could get greater detail. I was actually cruising along the Iranian border in Iraq with an Army NG General one day. He was inspecting an underground oil pipeline right along the buffer zone with Iran. He’s not gonna make out any detail at 2,000 ft up but 200 ft up there’s plenty of detail.

While I’m sure the B212 was IFR, they don’t have any real low / mid level IFR system over there. In both Iraq and Afghanistan we flew IFR equipped aircraft but the only IFR ops were the FW flying at high altitude. I wouldn’t trust any of those controllers there even if they had a low altitude IFR structure.

Plus, weren’t talking mountains and a sight seeing tour. I’ve done a bunch of VIP flights over there, IFR does you no good. Can’t shoot an IAP to the middle of the mountain range. Gotta maintain VMC and your pax actually have to see what you’re trying to show them. If you punch in, well you better know your surroundings and have enough power to climb. Some serious granite in that neck of the woods.

This accident is pretty simple study to me because we've seen it time and time again in helicopter flying. It doesn’t baffle me in the least. Poor weather, mountains and a couple of pilots with pressure to perform.
 
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Pi1otguy said:
Stupid question. Were they flying low to avoid anti-air threats in their own airspace? Not sure why one wouldn't just cruise above most weather when a VIP is onboard.

I wouldn't expect a head of state's aircraft to be VFR only.
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Helicopers aren't often used in "over weather" applications. Helo pilots often prefer to dodge rocks and towers vs going IFR to get above the clouds.
 
Pi1otguy said:
Not sure why one wouldn't just cruise above most weather when a VIP is onboard.
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Considering they crashed at 7500 feet not much room to left to over fly without oxygen....
Pi1otguy said:
I wouldn't expect a head of state's aircraft to be VFR only.
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Keep in mind most places a helicopter flies from and to do not have any IFR infrastructure... even in the US. Hence the reason most helicopter ops are VFR.
 
This really isn’t something germane to the middle eastern areas or their type of aircraft either. It’s just the nature of that type of flying and the flexibility that helicopters provide. 160th flew Obama around in Afghanistan when I was there. HMX-1 flew Bush around Kosovo right before I got there. All those aircraft are IFR but there’s nothing supporting that based on their destinations. They’re flying the POTUS to visit troops at small outlying COPs/FOBs all VFR. Just like in Kosovo I flew the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs up to a COP called “Fire Base Rock.” It’s a cut out on the top of a mountain. Can’t shoot an IAP to that.

Now, if things go south, there are emergency GPS approaches (doubtful Iran has them) or you fly to the nearest major airport with an IAP. But, hopefully you don’t get yourself backed into a corner that you can’t get out of.
 
Realize IFR capable helicopters in my era of flying in the Army had a single NDB (AH-1 and AH-64A) and required the ability to do a radar approach at destination ( PAR or ASR). We did occasionally fly IFR and were required to take an annual ride. Utility Helicopters all had VORs with a glideslope but scout helicopters had basic instruments and VFR only. Helicopters in general for the most part are a VFR operation…even today in the military.
 
I'm surprised how little has been made of this crash. Outside of the aviation circles I haven't seen much coverage, considering it was the head of state of such an "active" country
 
midwestpa24 said:
I'm surprised how little has been made of this crash. Outside of the aviation circles I haven't seen much coverage, considering it was the head of state of such an "active" country
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I don't think Raisi was really a household name. Didn't have the flair of a Gaddafi, and the country is rather "active" from the shadows. Besides, it's not like his death will change anything.
 
“President” in that country is not the top of the ladder. That would be the “Supreme Leader”, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
 
Foreign Policy wonks are pretty tussled about it. The President was the groomed replacement for the Supreme Leader.
 
Jim K said:
We're about to have a bunch of surplus Ospreys, right?
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The irony of that, if I have it right, is that that aircraft was created in part as a result of the screwup over in that very country during the Carter administration.
 
Nicey done. l aways appreciate historical perspective. I remember that as a sandstorm though...

Albany Tom said:
The irony of that, if I have it right, is that that aircraft was created in part as a result of the screwup over in that very country during the Carter administration.
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But if the helicopters didn't have to stop for fuel, would the sandstorm have made a difference?
 
I was a child when it happened, I don't remember the details.
 
Mikey52 said:
But if the helicopters didn't have to stop for fuel, would the sandstorm have made a difference?
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Yes, per a few people who were involved with it and worked at my old day job. As I recall the storm delayed the helicopters plus a few other things even before they arrived at the refuel site. There were also several mechanical issues involved once at the fuel site which was the cause to abort. Then the 53/130 accident happened.
 
Ah yes the Jimmy Carter Desert Classic…as we referred to it…what a mess…
 
Mikey52 said:
But if the helicopters didn't have to stop for fuel, would the sandstorm have made a difference?
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Yes. Helicopters generally fly low. Lower yet to avoid radar detection. The only way to make it to the refueling point on schedule was through the sandstorm.
 
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