ATP Flight School
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RyanShort1
Final Approach
They're expensive, I think a pilot I fly with is still trying to pay off the loans.
dmspilot
Final Approach
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They are known for fast, but low-quality assembly-line-like training. You pay a steep premium to buy into their "zero to hero in 8 months" (or whatever number of months they're peddling at the time — it seems to change regularly).
Can your friend even get a medical certificate? That’s the first thing to know before applying for one of these programs.
How does your friend feel about shelling out $110K for a full time effort that will take longer than advertised due to operational policies that limit flying options. That’s does not include housing or meals or various sundry items.
At the end of the program, you’re not qualified to do anything other than teach, and there’s no guarantee ATP will hire anyone in their program.
There will not be time outside the program to work and you’re tied to the schedule, so any social or personal commitments have to be worked around.
How does your friend feel about shelling out $110K for a full time effort that will take longer than advertised due to operational policies that limit flying options. That’s does not include housing or meals or various sundry items.
Airline Career Pilot Program / ATP Flight School
ATP's Airline Career Pilot Program flight training takes you from zero experience to commercial multi-engine instrument-rated pilot with certified flight instructor certificates in just 5 months.
atpflightschool.com
At the end of the program, you’re not qualified to do anything other than teach, and there’s no guarantee ATP will hire anyone in their program.
There will not be time outside the program to work and you’re tied to the schedule, so any social or personal commitments have to be worked around.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
For that kind of money, I’d buy a TAA Archer or 172 and have at it locally.Can your friend even get a medical certificate? That’s the first thing to know before applying for one of these programs.
How does your friend feel about shelling out $110K for a full time effort that will take longer than advertised due to operational policies that limit flying options. That’s does not include housing or meals or various sundry items.
Airline Career Pilot Program / ATP Flight School
ATP's Airline Career Pilot Program flight training takes you from zero experience to commercial multi-engine instrument-rated pilot with certified flight instructor certificates in just 5 months.atpflightschool.com
At the end of the program, you’re not qualified to do anything other than teach, and there’s no guarantee ATP will hire anyone in their program.
There will not be time outside the program to work and you’re tied to the schedule, so any social or personal commitments have to be worked around.
Clip4
Final Approach
From the ATP website, “Zero Time to Commercial Multi-Engine Pilot with CFIs in 9 Months.”
If you compare that claim to the geographic locations, weather makes that impossible 90% of their locations.
If you compare that claim to the geographic locations, weather makes that impossible 90% of their locations.
Thanks for all the replies.
First Class Medical "should" not be a problem --- waiting on AME apt now
Cost -- yes it is stupid expensive. There is a lot of risk due to the fact a job is not guaranteed / one could flame out and end up saddled with 100k debt just to be able to get a $100 hamburger.
Locations --- agree there are only a couple locations favorable for year round flight training. To be serious about getting thru it on pace you are probably looking at relocating to FL or AZ
Options --- we talked about her buying an aircraft also but it would be hard to find a plane IFR and sound enough for that kind of hours and training for 100k. Then there is all the associated (we know how they add up) expenses plus instructor cost. You are still stuck renting for multi-engine / complex
I think there are 2 main benefits one is paying a premium for with ATP over going at it alone. They have all aircraft needed for training from 172 to multi-engine. Secondly they have or say they have access to the airlines to at least put one in contact with appropriate hiring options.
Thanks again
First Class Medical "should" not be a problem --- waiting on AME apt now
Cost -- yes it is stupid expensive. There is a lot of risk due to the fact a job is not guaranteed / one could flame out and end up saddled with 100k debt just to be able to get a $100 hamburger.
Locations --- agree there are only a couple locations favorable for year round flight training. To be serious about getting thru it on pace you are probably looking at relocating to FL or AZ
Options --- we talked about her buying an aircraft also but it would be hard to find a plane IFR and sound enough for that kind of hours and training for 100k. Then there is all the associated (we know how they add up) expenses plus instructor cost. You are still stuck renting for multi-engine / complex
I think there are 2 main benefits one is paying a premium for with ATP over going at it alone. They have all aircraft needed for training from 172 to multi-engine. Secondly they have or say they have access to the airlines to at least put one in contact with appropriate hiring options.
Thanks again
Did you go thru the entire program? If you don't mind would you detail your experience please? If not on the open forum you could send me a PM.
Thank you
mandm
En-Route
I would advise against ATP for various reasons.
1) The Cost
2) You need to move at their pace or you fail and drop out, #1 still applies (and yes I know people in this boat)
3) You don’t know if you like flying (when I first started I would get almost sea sick, I was able to overcome it but not everyone can)
4) You cannot choose your instructor (you may not click or communicate well)
Go to a part 61 school at your own pace (omg yes you have to make a schedule and plan and follow through with it!), I have about one month of solid training (going 4-5 times a week) that was delayed 2 months due to Covid and a little more time due to scheduling the DPE. I think I started in March, we were closed April May for Covid and I got my PPL June 30th. I don’t know the cost but let’s say 60 hours x $200 = 12k plus the exams 1k = 13k plus transportation. It was probably cheaper because our instructors rates were $45/hr and I think wet rental was $115/hr but those have since both increased, and you’ll have solo time that you don’t have to pay for the instructor as well. You can shop around to find an instructor that you click and communicate well with.
Now you have your PPL congrats, if you like flying, you can proceed on a step by step basis. Next being instrument, followed by commercial, and then CFI if you want to work as an instructor.
You mentioned getting an IFR capable airplane or a complex airplane. Complex is not required, now you can use a TAA (technically advanced aircraft) with some advanced avionics to qualify and that’s for your commercial rating. IFR is the next step, focus on VFR flying and learning the basics then add instruments. Even with an instrument rating, my aircraft is also IFR and was well under 100k, but I am not comfortable flying instruments. It requires full focus and attention. You don’t want to jump into things quickly with aviation (it’s easy to get in over your head and become a news headline), gain your experience and take it step by step.
1) The Cost
2) You need to move at their pace or you fail and drop out, #1 still applies (and yes I know people in this boat)
3) You don’t know if you like flying (when I first started I would get almost sea sick, I was able to overcome it but not everyone can)
4) You cannot choose your instructor (you may not click or communicate well)
Go to a part 61 school at your own pace (omg yes you have to make a schedule and plan and follow through with it!), I have about one month of solid training (going 4-5 times a week) that was delayed 2 months due to Covid and a little more time due to scheduling the DPE. I think I started in March, we were closed April May for Covid and I got my PPL June 30th. I don’t know the cost but let’s say 60 hours x $200 = 12k plus the exams 1k = 13k plus transportation. It was probably cheaper because our instructors rates were $45/hr and I think wet rental was $115/hr but those have since both increased, and you’ll have solo time that you don’t have to pay for the instructor as well. You can shop around to find an instructor that you click and communicate well with.
Now you have your PPL congrats, if you like flying, you can proceed on a step by step basis. Next being instrument, followed by commercial, and then CFI if you want to work as an instructor.
You mentioned getting an IFR capable airplane or a complex airplane. Complex is not required, now you can use a TAA (technically advanced aircraft) with some advanced avionics to qualify and that’s for your commercial rating. IFR is the next step, focus on VFR flying and learning the basics then add instruments. Even with an instrument rating, my aircraft is also IFR and was well under 100k, but I am not comfortable flying instruments. It requires full focus and attention. You don’t want to jump into things quickly with aviation (it’s easy to get in over your head and become a news headline), gain your experience and take it step by step.
Don’t fall for that one either, it’s simply a marketing gimmick.
The airlines couldn’t care less whether or not you came from ATP and they don’t have any more of an access point to the airlines than anyone else. They thrive on folks who don’t know better and latch on to their very attractive marketing.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
True, the $100k isn’t an all-in cost, but a lot of that $100k will be recoverable with sale of the airplane in a year or two, so the real cost is fuel, insurance, maintenance, and instructor, all of which will total up to a lot less than $100k, AND she’ll be flying an airplane that isn’t a beat-up piece of crap (if that’s important to her) that’s available without scheduling issues whenever she chooses to fly.
Even throwing in rental to get the multi rating, it should be a cheaper, but the convenience and reliability would be the deciding factors for me.
ArrowFlyer86
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The Little Arrow That Could
There is nothing appealing about the ATP value proposition.
That's a huge dollar amount to get to the minimum qualified commercial credentials.
I think you're far, far better off buying a 152 (with a prebuy inspection) - flying the hell out of it - and selling it when you're done.
It's true that mx could be a headache, but the expected value is still far better.
At the end of the day you can sell your plane back and recuperate much or most of that capital outlay. You can't recuperate any of the costs of your sunk $100k+ education.
... And both get you to the same credentialing levels and open the same doors... I don't think it's possible the networking value of ATP can bridge the value gap.
Just $0.02 from a non-commercial pilot who has a packed ATP school at their homedrome.
That's a huge dollar amount to get to the minimum qualified commercial credentials.
I think you're far, far better off buying a 152 (with a prebuy inspection) - flying the hell out of it - and selling it when you're done.
It's true that mx could be a headache, but the expected value is still far better.
At the end of the day you can sell your plane back and recuperate much or most of that capital outlay. You can't recuperate any of the costs of your sunk $100k+ education.
... And both get you to the same credentialing levels and open the same doors... I don't think it's possible the networking value of ATP can bridge the value gap.
Just $0.02 from a non-commercial pilot who has a packed ATP school at their homedrome.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
I’d also add that if she does buy an airplane, I would suggest limiting the inspection interval…if she’s going to go full throttle to some level of experience, I personally wouldn’t go more than 150 hours between inspections. Whether that’s a full-blown annual/100-hour, or some lesser inspection agreed upon with the mechanic, I’ve found that having a professional eye on the airplane periodically does catch things that I miss.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Also, Commercial/multi/CFI/II/MEI is less than 300 hours if done effectively. Averaging $350/hour, even with instructor time and a little multi time, seems a little excessive.
mandm
En-Route
Mind you part 141 schools can get their ratings with less experience, so the per hour cost is actually higher. You’ve finished and what do you know?
They are selling a dream, and those who buy it I think lack a little logic and planning skills. Exactly who you want flying your next commercial flight.
Thanks again for the replies .. For context some replies seemed direct to me but this is my 30 yr old GF who is interested.
I have personally been flying about 10 years with 2k hours and own a Columbia 400 so she is not that new to aviation.
I do agree the cost is crazy --- thanks for the insight and opinions.
I have personally been flying about 10 years with 2k hours and own a Columbia 400 so she is not that new to aviation.
I do agree the cost is crazy --- thanks for the insight and opinions.
mandm
En-Route
Do you have a CFI? If not then maybe get one and teach her in your airplane.